Shame on Israel!!!

[JB3]

Good luck talking to these people about Israel, along with owning the asses of lawmakers from both parties, Israel's propaganda machine thoroughly directs most of their moral compasses. Israel is the only country on this planet that can make or break a politician's career, it is the only country that can attack an American military ship without prompting a Congressional inquiry at the least, it is the only country that spies on the US and gets away with it, when having the choice to serve his own country's military and that of a foreign country, Rahm Emanuel chose Israeli military, and if he had served a country other than Israel, he probably would not have the position he has in the government today. Democracy is not only democracy when the elected are palatable to the Empire and its lackeys. Terrorism is not only terrorism when conducted by non state actors. Hell if it wasn't for terrorism by non state actors, Israel probably wouldn't even be a state today. It's a tragedy what happened on the ship, but it is but a small event in the long history of this conflict of decades. If the US is interested in being just, and if it wants to save Israel from destroying itself, there needs to be an end to the welfare handouts that US taxpayers give to Israel that only makes weapons manufacturers wealthier. Ethnic cleansing anywhere is wrong, not only when directed at US allies. Occupation is wrong everywhere, not just when its Kuwaitis or other US allies.

And you've conveniently ignored what happened in this situation to go on another of your diatribes. How about you address what actually happened, and that the claims of innocence by those on the ship cannot be taken seriously?

 

[SoulSearcher]

And you've conveniently ignored what happened in this situation to go on another of your diatribes. How about you address what actually happened, and that the claims of innocence by those on the ship cannot be taken seriously?

It was international waters, piracy is illegal.

 

[AsianDream]

You seem to be mistaken in thinking I support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. They aren't victims of genocide, but Israel is ghetto-izing the Palestinians in both Gaza Strip and the West Bank in a way that is morally reprehensible. However, it is also understandable that Israel and Egypt would seek to keep Hamas weak, given the history Israel has with Hamas and the history the current Egyptian government has with the Muslim Brotherhood. Since their tactics with Gaza are clearly working though, I won't condemn them. They have a right to defend themselves. And that may mean preventive measures when you're dealing with people who use suicide tactics frequently.

I must say that this is the most reasonable summary of the situation I have read.

Many Palestinians feel an intense sense of injustice (not without good cause) - but they must also realise that they won't put things right by violence.

If they want peace and prospertity for themselves and their children - the best way is to get as good a deal as possible from Israel (and Egypt) in return for real lasting peace.

Either the Palestinians need to reject Hamas - or Hamas needs to change to want to actually better the lot of their supporters. There are several historical precedents for both - with the transformation of the IRA in the UK being one good example.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Either the Palestinians need to reject Hamas - or Hamas needs to change to want to actually better the lot of their supporters. There are several historical precedents for both - with the transformation of the IRA in the UK being one good example.

You mean to say that the continued colonisation of Palestinian land on the West Bank, the house demolitions, the usurping of water sources on Palestinian land, the razing down of olive trees, the Jewish only roads and checkpoints on occupied territories, the wall that was built on occupied territories rather than along Israel proper, and the unequal treatment of even Arab citizens of Israel, all is due to Hamas??? I see your point, but this conflict hardly started with Hamas. To the contrary, Israel was one of the first supporters of Hamas in their bid to weaken the PLO (kinda like how Americans encouraged radicalisation of Afghan youth to fight the Russians).

 

[JB3]

It was international waters, piracy is illegal.

Not if those ships refused to abide by an established blockade and announced their intentions to violate the blockade. And you're still ignoring the fact that those on the ship acted first.

 

[AsianDream]

You mean to say that the continued colonisation of Palestinian land on the West Bank, the house demolitions, the usurping of water sources on Palestinian land, the razing down of olive trees, the Jewish only roads and checkpoints on occupied territories, the wall that was built on occupied territories rather than along Israel proper, and the unequal treatment of even Arab citizens of Israel, all is due to Hamas??? I see your point, but this conflict hardly started with Hamas. To the contrary, Israel was one of the first supporters of Hamas in their bid to weaken the PLO (kinda like how Americans encouraged radicalisation of Afghan youth to fight the Russians).

I don’t really know enough about the situation in Israel/Palestine to have a firm grasp of the details. But I’d broadly accept that what you say about Israel using force against the Palestinians is probably accurate.

I’d certainly never take the view that people should not use force to fight injustice against them – and I consider the concept of “terrorism is always bad” as an idea promulgated by the strong to demonize resistance by the weak.

However – the reality is that the only way for both the Palestinians and Israel to have peace and prosperity is for them to reach a compromise.

In fact one really good thing about human nature is how bitter enemies can often end up being good friends – Both the Jewish and Palestinian people are very enterprising and it’s certainly not inconceivable that they could build a very prosperous part of the world by working together.

This may sound an overly idealistic view of the future – It is based on the fundamental premise that neither the Jews nor the Palestinians are basically Evil people – which I personally think is true.

 

[jackoroe]

going by the San Remo Manual, Israel was 100% within its rights to board and search a ship that announced its intentions of breaking through Israel's naval blockade, international waters or not.

5/6 complied with Israel and experienced no issues.
1 ship decided it would be a good idea to open fire on armed soldiers and then pretended to act surprised when the soldiers fired back.

I watched a story about this on a French newscast. I like to get other than American perspectives from time to time. That story portrayed these folks as provocateurs. They intentionally caused an incident knowing full well that they weren't going to run the blockade. They were armed and attacked the Israelis. Unfortunately, they brought knives and slingshots to a gunfight. That usually doesn't go too well.

The provocateurs got their 15 minutes of fame. The blockade was not broken and 18 people who attacked the Israelis are now dead.

 

[SoulSearcher]

What a barbarian state. Israel attacked peace flotillas and killed 10 and injured dozens. I am afraid there will be more casualties given that many are seriously injured.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...lestinian-aid-flotilla_n_595033.html#comments

By the way, Israel has maintained a complete media blackout on this, only allowing its own version of events to go public, they have not allowed media access to the activists so far.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/01/israel/index.html

 

[bankside]

Israel is building the wall in the wrong spot. That question was decided in 1967. So now who is trying to contain whom?

It is moronic on both sides, and in my assessment, it is two failed states flailing away at each other, each living only in its own rhetoric.

 

[JB3]

By the way, Israel has maintained a complete media blackout on this, only allowing its own version of events to go public, they have not allowed media access to the activists so far.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/01/israel/index.html

Then explain the video provided by the activists that was on every single American newscast last night.

 

[PrivateTimm]

I watched a story about this on a French newscast. I like to get other than American perspectives from time to time. That story portrayed these folks as provocateurs. They intentionally caused an incident knowing full well that they weren't going to run the blockade. They were armed and attacked the Israelis. Unfortunately, they brought knives and slingshots to a gunfight. That usually doesn't go too well.

Very true, very funny, very sad.

I am wondering why "peace activists" were carrying knives and why they attacked IDF personnel. Neither sounds very peaceful to me.

 

[jackoroe]

Very true, very funny, very sad.

I am wondering why "peace activists" were carrying knives and why they attacked IDF personnel. Neither sounds very peaceful to me.

Well, despite the "blackout" we've got video that appears to have been taken by Israel depicting the savage attack by so called peace activists. In light of what was done to these service people, Israel responded with amazing restraint. I'm sure they won't make the same mistake again.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZzE07fCm3I&NR=1[/ame]

 

[Kulindahr]

Many Palestinians feel an intense sense of injustice (not without good cause) - but they must also realise that they won't put things right by violence.

If they want peace and prospertity for themselves and their children - the best way is to get as good a deal as possible from Israel (and Egypt) in return for real lasting peace.

Either the Palestinians need to reject Hamas - or Hamas needs to change to want to actually better the lot of their supporters. There are several historical precedents for both - with the transformation of the IRA in the UK being one good example.

One place they should be hollering for justice is the surrounding states which attacked Israel and started the refugee problem. Those states attacked Jews within their borders without provocation, seizing their property, hounding them out. Those Jews became refugees -- and Israel took them all in. But the other side in that conflict didn't take responsibility for the refugees they'd caused by their attack.

going by the San Remo Manual, Israel was 100% within its rights to board and search a ship that announced its intentions of breaking through Israel's naval blockade, international waters or not.

5/6 complied with Israel and experienced no issues.
1 ship decided it would be a good idea to open fire on armed soldiers and then pretended to act surprised when the soldiers fired back.

In this case, aggression brought its just price.

Israel is building the wall in the wrong spot. That question was decided in 1967. So now who is trying to contain whom?

It is moronic on both sides, and in my assessment, it is two failed states flailing away at each other, each living only in its own rhetoric.

Israel couldn't be characterized as "failed" if it weren't for people determined since WW II to annihilate them.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, despite the "blackout" we've got video that appears to have been taken by Israel depicting the savage attack by so called peace activists. In light of what was done to these service people, Israel responded with amazing restraint. I'm sure they won't make the same mistake again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZzE07fCm3I&NR=1

Wow -- "peace activists" with grenades and fire bombs? throwing soldiers from one deck to another?

If Israel were really the barbarian state so many people fantasize about, they would have just gotten their people off the ship and sunk it.

 

[bankside]

One place they should be hollering for justice is the surrounding states which attacked Israel and started the refugee problem. Those states attacked Jews within their borders without provocation, seizing their property, hounding them out. Those Jews became refugees -- and Israel took them all in. But the other side in that conflict didn't take responsibility for the refugees they'd caused by their attack.



In this case, aggression brought its just price.



Israel couldn't be characterized as "failed" if it weren't for people determined since WW II to annihilate them.

What would you recommend if Canada started building a wall 5 or 10 kilometres into Washington State? That Americans should protest, carrying "Down with Beaver" signs peacefully in front of our highly awesome embassy in Washington? Or maybe they should arm themselves?

Aggression?

 

[NotThatCreative]

Wow -- "peace activists" with grenades and fire bombs? throwing soldiers from one deck to another?

If Israel were really the barbarian state so many people fantasize about, they would have just gotten their people off the ship and sunk it.

Didn't you know? Stun grenades and firebombs are part of every peace activists' gear. Essential for the spirit of nonviolence, they are. Gandhi and Dr. King would've been proud.

 

[Kulindahr]

What would you recommend if Canada started building a wall 5 or 10 kilometres into Washington State? That Americans should protest, carrying "Down with Beaver" signs peacefully in front of our highly awesome embassy in Washington? Or maybe they should arm themselves?

Aggression?

If people in Washington State had been firing rockets into Canada and harboring terrorists who taught children to serve as suicide bombers, and this was encouraged and aided by the state government, I would applaud Canada's humanitarian response of separating the criminals from the peaceful rather than responding with heavy military force. And if attacks nevertheless continued, I would support Canada's annexation of that strip of land.


Aggression -- what else do you call it when "peace activists" use pipe, grenade, fire bomb, etc. on soldiers who have not attacked them? They struck first; they got what they asked for.

 

[AnalblasT]

 

[AnalblasT]

 

[AnalblasT]