Shit I'm Really Sick Of

[Críostóir]

Someone on another site, someone who's usually pretty reasonable, posted this on the topic of the latest Apocalypse Fail:

And as usual when anybody involved with Christianity does anything stupid, the entire religion is being insulted in ways that would be considered offensive and inappropriate if the target were any other religion.

Now that is just plain bullshit, and I said so at some length. Here's part of my post in reply:

People insult Pagan religions (paleo-, neo-, and eo-) all the damn time and hardly ANYONE thinks it's inappropriate or offensive.

Paleo: Hercules, Xena: Warrior Princess, Troy, every "myth" epic ever made, Stargate (the movie) and Stargate SG-1.

Neo: The Craft (despite having a Wiccan consultant, they still managed to have some really stooopid shit), Buffy the Vampire Slayer (much as I loved it, it insulted Wicca repeatedly without so much as a flinch from anyone), and of course the infamous Charmed (everyone involved in that at any point should be ashamed).

Eo: Stargate SG-1 again, them apparently having forgotten that there are people who still worship and whose ancestors always have worshiped the Hindu gods. Nirrti isn't a very popular goddess, but it's still insulting to Hinduism to portray her as just a human with a parasitic snake in her head. Don't even get me started on the Hollywood bullshit about "witch doctors" and "voodoo" (yeah, Vodun is a religion) and the various travesties of Native American shamanism that appear in movie after movie and TV show after TV show.

So yeah, it's not OK to tar Christianity with the ridiculous, destructive behavior of self-professed "Christian" loonies. I object to that whenever I see it, and have done so time and again, online and in person.

But "insulted in ways that would be considered offensive and inappropriate if the target were any other religion" is itself insulting bullshit. Maybe my religion or that of 950 million Hindus doesn't count as "religion" to you, or maybe you just don't notice the insults that are constantly thrown at us. But insults (or whole religions) don't just disappear because you prefer not to notice them.

So if you don't like having your religion insulted, join the fucking club, dude. Seriously, I'm with you there. But don't try to act like you're the only member.

 

[rareboy]

Oh my god.

If this had been some Hindu or Islamic religious nut that had declared the end of the world, the Christians would be piling on them to denounce the falseness of their doctrine.

The fact that mainstream Christianity not only does not follow the tenets of Christ, but has splintered into myriad apostate cults focused on some bullshit nonsense they've made up about the Rapture and the biblical certainty of Armageddon lays it nakedly open to criticism.

But once again, the poor Christians are playing the victim card.

Tell your friend to grow a pair...and that if his religion had the integrity to live by the words of its Master, instead of a motley collection of so called 'disciples' and false prophets, maybe it wouldn't be so easy to embarrass.

 

[Críostóir]

I almost told him to STOP WHINING. But that would have been too much. 'Whining' is a loaded word on that site.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Someone on another site, someone who's usually pretty reasonable, posted this on the topic of the latest Apocalypse Fail:

Now that is just plain bullshit, and I said so at some length. Here's part of my post in reply:

You know it is funny that you are speaking on religious hypocrisy. When you are the one who has no problem bashing Christianity but I seem to remember you bending over backwards to defend Islam when people were critcizeing it.

I would let you know and every Pagan out there that as a Pagan you can not be on the side of either Christianity or Islam. Both religions are anti gay, women, violent, barbaric and evil. They are our enemies and have made it clear that they hate us and look for our destruction.

Yeah Christians are hypocrites but so are Liberal so called Pagans who defend Islam. It only fits with what I have said that in America the right is on the side of the Christians and on the left they are on the side of Muslims. There is no party in the West that does not have some of the Abrahamic taint effecting them.

 

[Críostóir]

You know it is funny that you are speaking on religious hypocrisy. When you are the one who has no problem bashing Christianity but I seem to remember you bending over backwards to defend Islam when people were critcizeing it.

OK, come up with an instance of me "bashing Christianity" [Text: Removed by Moderator]

I do not "bash" Christianity.

 

[Mariatenebre]

OK, come up with an instance of me "bashing Christianity" [Text: Removed by Moderator]

I do not "bash" Christianity.

You just did.

The point was you jumped on me and others on a thread when we were criticizeing the evils of the Islamic religion and then you come here and criticize Christianity.

 

[Críostóir]

If you think this thread is in any way critical of Christianity as such (as opposed to certain Christians acting dorky/being foolish), then I have a question for you.

What color is the sky on your planet?

 

[Críostóir]

I am taking Mariatenebre's lack of response to mean either a) she's reread what I wrote and realized that it is not, in fact, any kind of attack on Christianity, or b) she's just given up in exasperation.

Of course, she could also just have gotten busy. Life does happen.

 

[Kulindahr]

You know it is funny that you are speaking on religious hypocrisy. When you are the one who has no problem bashing Christianity but I seem to remember you bending over backwards to defend Islam when people were critcizeing it.

I would let you know and every Pagan out there that as a Pagan you can not be on the side of either Christianity or Islam. Both religions are anti gay, women, violent, barbaric and evil. They are our enemies and have made it clear that they hate us and look for our destruction.

Yeah Christians are hypocrites but so are Liberal so called Pagans who defend Islam. It only fits with what I have said that in America the right is on the side of the Christians and on the left they are on the side of Muslims. There is no party in the West that does not have some of the Abrahamic taint effecting them.

So let me guess this straight: Criostoir makes a thread with a complaint that he suggests is shared by many in various religions, and you come in here and act out the thing he's complaining about -- and then you accuse him of what he's complained about?

I've never seen Crio "bash" anything, and what he defends is generally the truth of statements being made. He -- and myself and a few others -- have this thing about belief systems being attacked or ridiculed by using straw men or caricatures instead of the actual substance.

So if he's bashed anyone, let's see the link. If he "defended Islam", let's see the link.

[Text: Removed by Moderator]

 

[Mariatenebre]

So let me guess this straight: Criostoir makes a thread with a complaint that he suggests is shared by many in various religions, and you come in here and act out the thing he's complaining about -- and then you accuse him of what he's complained about?

I've never seen Crio "bash" anything, and what he defends is generally the truth of statements being made. He -- and myself and a few others -- have this thing about belief systems being attacked or ridiculed by using straw men or caricatures instead of the actual substance.

So if he's bashed anyone, let's see the link. If he "defended Islam", let's see the link.

[Text: Removed by Moderator]

He defended Islam right here.
http://jmedia27.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304391

In fact I am surprise that you do not remember this instance because you were apart of the debate as well. Further more this is not the only instance I have seen. I have even seen him betraying pagans by insinuating that Asatru is a racist religion which it is not. All the while being agog at the criticizeing of Islam and evaluating it as a good or bad ideology.

 

[Kulindahr]

He defended Islam right here.
http://jmedia27.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304391

In fact I am surprise that you do not remember this instance because you were apart of the debate as well. Further more this is not the only instance I have seen. I have even seen him betraying pagans by insinuating that Asatru is a racist religion which it is not. All the while being agog at the criticizeing of Islam and evaluating it as a good or bad ideology.

I remember that thread -- and nowhere in it did he "defend Islam".

What he did was be rational -- [Text: Removed by Moderator] In fact what he did was engage in critique of Islam and evaluation of it as good or bad.

I didn't know Crio was an Asatru adherent -- which is what he would have to be to be "betraying" it. [Text: Removed by Moderator]


Too bad there's no Oz, nor a Wizard -- you could do with a journey on the Yellow Brick Road.

 

[Críostóir]

I didn't know Crio was an Asatru adherent -- which is what he would have to be to be "betraying" it. [Text: Removed by Moderator]

I think the idea is "Pagan solidarity" -- that is, that no adherent of a Pagan religion should attack any other Pagan religion. I generally refrain from attacking any religion as such, but Pagan ones get no special exemptions from me. I think of this as being "fair minded," personally.

Even an objection on those grounds would only make sense if I had actually said that Asatru was racist.

 

[Mariatenebre]

I remember that thread -- and nowhere in it did he "defend Islam".

What he did was be rational -- [Text: Removed by Moderator] In fact what he did was engage in critique of Islam and evaluation of it as good or bad.

I didn't know Crio was an Asatru adherent -- which is what he would have to be to be "betraying" it. [Text: Removed by Moderator]


Too bad there's no Oz, nor a Wizard -- you could do with a journey on the Yellow Brick Road.

He jumped on everyone in the thread for criticizeing Islam and his only answer to the valid criticisms of Islam was that there were worse things in the Bible. Which being someone who has studied the Bible and the Quran as well as the Hadith that is simply not true.

Next he seemed to imply on another thread that Asatru was racist because they believed that only the Norse were descendants from the gods. However being close friends with an Asatruar I know that Asatruars view that all humans are descended from gods. Except that non Norse people are descended from their respective gods. AKA the Greeks are descended from the Greek gods etc. The Norse even allowed foreigners to participate in their religions and would when they were in a foreign country as a sign of respect pay homage to the native god there.

However my point is that pagans should stick together. We get enough crap from Abrahamic religions who openly hate us. So we should stick together and defend ourselves not malign our fellow Pagans.

Also when it comes to the Wizard of Oz I prefer to be the Wicked Witch of the West. After all I get to be fierce and I even get a book and a Broadway play written about me showing that I was the hero all along and it was the wicked wizard who was at fault.

 

[Críostóir]

Next he seemed to imply on another thread that Asatru was racist because they believed that only the Norse were descendants from the gods. However being close friends with an Asatruar I know that Asatruars view that all humans are descended from gods. Except that non Norse people are descended from their respective gods. AKA the Greeks are descended from the Greek gods etc. The Norse even allowed foreigners to participate in their religions and would when they were in a foreign country as a sign of respect pay homage to the native god there.

I'm pleased to see that you've backed off to "seemed to imply." You are, however, mistaken about my position, which is that SOME Asatru (the name I learned for a follower of the religion as well as the religion itself) are racist and use it as justification for racism, just as SOME Christians have been racist and used the Bible to justify slavery. Of course not ALL Asatru are racists, any more than all Christians are. Not even the majority (I believe) of either is.

I only vaguely remember that thread. I believe I was talking about Asatru in American prisons, where it's been a binding force for race-based gangs, as Islam has sometimes been for African-American gangs. I don't know if Asatru has also had the tension-defusing effect that Islam has sometimes had in American prisons; I would expect it probably has, but I have no information about that.

However my point is that pagans should stick together. We get enough crap from Abrahamic religions who openly hate us. So we should stick together and defend ourselves not malign our fellow Pagans.

I disagree. I think Pagans (at any rate Wiccans, at any rate I feel it as a Wiccan obligation) are obliged to decry evil and laud good, regardless of the label held by the person doing the evil or good. I think Christians do a hell of a lot more of both, because they're just so numerous, but a Pagan evil is no better than a Christian evil, and worse for us as Pagans, since it reflects on our community.

It's been my overall experience that the vast majority of people in any religious community mean no harm to anyone (even the ones who have awful opinions about gays or whatever), with the ones who are actually evil in the minority, and the ones who would go out and kill in the name of their religion a tiny, tiny minority of those.

I have known people of many different religions, and by far the majority of all of them have been perfectly nice people. This is true of the Muslims I have known as much as of the Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Pagans of all stripes.

 

[HoodedRat]

No one should bash an entire religion because of the evil actions of a few wayward members of that said religion. Example: the Bashing of Catholicism based on a few bad apples.

'A few bad apples'?
Where Catholicism and Islam are concerned it is more like entire orchards, rather than a few apples.

It's almost amusing that you use the term 'wayward members': hundreds of Catholic priests have been very wayward with their own members where children are concerned.

 

[Dolmance]

May be a tad bit off Topic, but I will say this...No one should bash an entire religion because of the evil actions of a few wayward members of that said religion. Example: the Bashing of Catholicism based on a few bad apples.

By the same token, when there is clear and evident institutionalised evil that is being endorsed and defended, it is the right and obligation of anyone of critical moral sense to point them out and hold those responsible to account.

 

[kallipolis]

By the same token, when there is clear and evident institutionalised evil that is being endorsed and defended, it is the right and obligation of anyone of critical moral sense to point them out and hold those responsible to account.

That there was very poor handling, even criminal negligence in the way the hierarchy responded to the sexual abuse scandals does not translate into sexual abuse being endorsed, and defended by anyone.

 

[Críostóir]

That there was very poor handling, even criminal negligence in the way the hierarchy responded to the sexual abuse scandals does not translate into sexual abuse being endorsed, and defended by anyone.

There's considerable evidence of deliberate and widespread coverup, though. That amounts to condoning the underlying behavior. There are bishops who would be in jail today if they'd been, for example, school superintendents who moved molesting teachers around and coerced silence from victims and their families, as many of them apparently did.

Also, unlike Islam, Catholicism has a definite hierarchy with a single person at the top of the pyramid, and the hierarchy itself is implicated in the scandal. That means there's a structural problem in that hierarchy that needs to be addressed and has not been.

This does not, in my opinion, justify calling all Catholics child molesters, or even all Catholic priests. Most of the victims of the scandal were themselves Catholics, and it's deeply unfair to tag them with the label earned by their victimizers!

But that's the equivalent of what's done to Muslims with regard to terrorism. Today most of the victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims. Who do you think is getting blown up in those markets in Iraq? Muslims.

 

[kallipolis]

There's considerable evidence of deliberate and widespread coverup, though. That amounts to condoning the underlying behavior. There are bishops who would be in jail today if they'd been, for example, school superintendents who moved molesting teachers around and coerced silence from victims and their families, as many of them apparently did.

Most of the criminal negligence was driven by ignorance rather than any attempt to cover up the criminal behaviour of the abusive clergy.

In Ireland there was a conspiracy of silence that extended to the police, magistrates, politicians and the general population. The Murphy Report exposed a cultural indifference to clergy sexual abuse of minors. The climate in Ireland has changed and I have no doubt that Ireland is now dealing with such matters much more effectively.

Criminal negligence should have been more severely dealt with by the judicial authorities. But even the police recognised that the bishops were more often, or not totally lost in their attempts to confront allegations of sexual abuse by their priests.

Much has been learnt over the years and more robust rules, and guidance are now in place for bishops to more effectively respond to allegations of sexual abuse by their clergy.

I am not condoning criminal negligence but reject any thought that there was church institutional support for criminal sexual abuse of minors by clergy. Such accusations stink of an agenda driven programme that seeks to condemn all for the crimes of some 3 pct of the clergy.

 

[Críostóir]

I am not condoning criminal negligence but reject any thought that there was church institutional support for criminal sexual abuse of minors by clergy. Such accusations stink of an agenda driven programme that seeks to condemn all for the crimes of some 3 pct of the clergy.

No, not Church institutional support for the abuse itself. Certainly there was Church institutional support for covering up the fact that the abuse took place. I say that because it happened in so many different places across the world, and was handled essentially the same way everywhere. That smacks of policy, not individual choice.