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Shocker: GOPer Blocks Effort to Hold Oil Companies Accountable

Actually, he has said that the $75 million cap is not relevant in this case and that BP assumes all responsibility for clean-up costs. The company has already given $25 million each to Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, and Alabama to implement each state's oil spill contingency plan, separate from other funds. They make sure to note that that funding will not count against any of the states for future claims.

Here is a link to a PDF published by BP where they state that they will pay for all clean-up costs and all verifiable loss/damage claims.

http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/537711/

That phrase "necessary and appropriate" is a lawyer and insurance adjuster's delight. A great deal will depend on how it's interpreted by BP. They really ought to get some independent agency to evaluate claims.
 
Oh, yeah. . . and BP is such a beneficent company that they're going to restore financial security to all those people along the gulf coast whose lives balance on a knife edge right now. They've already begun to use chemical dispersants, which have been proven to do more harm than good, just because they make the oil spill "look" better. When the shrimp and oysters disappear for the next generation or two, BP will be right there to stand by the families that depend on them. When sea trutles balance onthe edge of extinction due to BP, Halliburton and TransOcean's colossal negligence, those companies will fund the efforts of marine biologists to save this vital species.

You cannot count on corporations to be altruistic. Their responsibility is to their shareholders. . . no one else.

Why the irrational hate? Shit son, accidents happen. BP has already committed to paying completely for the clean-up, and will likely pay out the ass for claims by fisherman and those hurt by the spill. This company isn't stupid; they will pay whatever they have to to make sure that people that were legitimately hurt, and the ecosystem, are well taken care of.
 
That phrase "necessary and appropriate" is a lawyer and insurance adjuster's delight. A great deal will depend on how it's interpreted by BP. They really ought to get some independent agency to evaluate claims.

What I take it to mean, and the government will take it to mean, is that they will pay claims that are not above and beyond what is reasonable. So some fisherman somewhere can't claim $10 million bucks or something ridiculous.
 
Why the irrational hate? Shit son, accidents happen. BP has already committed to paying completely for the clean-up, and will likely pay out the ass for claims by fisherman and those hurt by the spill. This company isn't stupid; they will pay whatever they have to to make sure that people that were legitimately hurt, and the ecosystem, are well taken care of.

"Irrational" son? You really expect BP to belly up to the bar and buy a round for everyone they've hurt with this mess? That, my young friend, is naïvité. They'll do everything in their power to appear altruistic. But, trust me, they'll take every short-cut they're allowed to reduce liability in this one. They will do no more than is required of them. And the GOP will try to defend them with more rounds of "tort reform" propaganda.
 
What I take it to mean, and the government will take it to mean, is that they will pay claims that are not above and beyond what is reasonable. So some fisherman somewhere can't claim $10 million bucks or something ridiculous.

Uh huh. Sounds to me like you're placing arbitrary limits on their liability right from the start. Who are you to say what claims are "ridiculous?" If someone expects or demands more than BP, Halliburton or TransOcean (three fine, upstanding, altruistic corporate citizens :rolleyes:) are willing to consider "necessary and appropriate," then it's up to the COURTS to decide. The language, as Kuli points out, invites the shirking of responsibility and the monetary gain of lawyers. You want tort reform, son? Banish qualifying remarks like "necessary and appropriate."
 
What I take it to mean, and the government will take it to mean, is that they will pay claims that are not above and beyond what is reasonable. So some fisherman somewhere can't claim $10 million bucks or something ridiculous.

Therein lies the wiggle-room for the lawyers and the accountants to play loose with the numbers. It's expected, and demanded by the shareholders that BP pay as little as legally possible for the cost of this disaster, and no legally toothless promise the CEO gives the American people will change the fact that entire reason BP is in business is to raise the net value of the firm as much as possible.

BP can get sued to hell civilly for all I care; I'm not even talking about private citizens taking BP to court. I simply want BP to pay out the nose for every thin dime it's going to cost to get the Gulf of Mexico proper again, and until I see a court ordering them to do it I have no reason to trust their marketing department claiming that BP is going to violate the tenants of the 'New American Capitalism', aka. "Fuck You, I've Got Mine."
 
Therein lies the wiggle-room for the lawyers and the accountants to play loose with the numbers. It's expected, and demanded by the shareholders that BP pay as little as legally possible for the cost of this disaster, and no legally toothless promise the CEO gives the American people will change the fact that entire reason BP is in business is to raise the net value of the firm as much as possible.

BP can get sued to hell civilly for all I care; I'm not even talking about private citizens taking BP to court. I simply want BP to pay out the nose for every thin dime it's going to cost to get the Gulf of Mexico proper again, and until I see a court ordering them to do it I have no reason to trust their marketing department claiming that BP is going to violate the tenants of the 'New American Capitalism', aka. "Fuck You, I've Got Mine."

They are. Or have you not been paying attention? BP has already spent several hundred million dollars on efforts to stop the leak, and you can bet your ass they're already planning on ponying up several billion more to do what it takes to clean up.

As I said before, BP isn't stupid. They'll spend what it takes to clean up the mess.
 
"Irrational" son? You really expect BP to belly up to the bar and buy a round for everyone they've hurt with this mess? That, my young friend, is naïvité. They'll do everything in their power to appear altruistic. But, trust me, they'll take every short-cut they're allowed to reduce liability in this one. They will do no more than is required of them. And the GOP will try to defend them with more rounds of "tort reform" propaganda.

Doubtful. You are entirely too cynical, and entirely too politicized. (or did you miss GOP AND dem senators putting the brakes on this legislation?) BP will spend what it takes because they know what is at stake here, and know that shortchanging people now will destroy their business later.
 
BP will spend what it takes because they know what is at stake here, and know that shortchanging people now will destroy their business later.

During the decade prior to the Gulf disaster, BP spent millions of dollars creating ads to promote an image of itself as eco-friendly. BP understands that public opinion matters – in the generation of revenue and the potential for government intervention or taxes.

February 18, 2010:
Despite the massive spending put down to distance its PR image from American oil companies like Exxon and promote a solar-friendly image with the introduction of the green and yellow sun icon in all their ads, BP remains an oil company committed to expanding its own profits, even if this means continuing to disregard the environment.

[Ryan Hunter] (American University undergraduate student, Roosevelt Institute Blog)



bp_ad.jpg
 
Doubtful. You are entirely too cynical, and entirely too politicized. (or did you miss GOP AND dem senators putting the brakes on this legislation?) BP will spend what it takes because they know what is at stake here, and know that shortchanging people now will destroy their business later.

Depends on where you draw the line between realistic, skeptical and cynical. Rather like the grey area between "necessary and appropriate" and what's the right thing to do. That isn't BP's decision to make. You, I, BP, the government or anyone else not directly or indirectly affected by this disaster have no standing in determining "necessary and appropriate." That's the job of our courts, assuming someone who's been harmed feels that BP's response to them has been anything less than "necessary and appropriate."

I've seen this sort of thing with corporations before and I guarantee that as soon as BP thinks they can get away with saying "okay, we've done enough" they will. Regardless of what has happened to the people affected, or the local, county and state governments and thousands of businesses and millions of employees affected by the decimation of the tourist trade, which could last for generations.

Who draws the line and where? BP? I think not.
 
Depends on where you draw the line between realistic, skeptical and cynical. Rather like the grey area between "necessary and appropriate" and what's the right thing to do. That isn't BP's decision to make. You, I, BP, the government or anyone else not directly or indirectly affected by this disaster have no standing in determining "necessary and appropriate." That's the job of our courts, assuming someone who's been harmed feels that BP's response to them has been anything less than "necessary and appropriate."

I've seen this sort of thing with corporations before and I guarantee that as soon as BP thinks they can get away with saying "okay, we've done enough" they will. Regardless of what has happened to the people affected, or the local, county and state governments and thousands of businesses and millions of employees affected by the decimation of the tourist trade, which could last for generations.

Who draws the line and where? BP? I think not.

No one's suggesting BP should be the arbiter of where their responsibility ends. What I'm saying is that you're giving them too little credit. They're keenly aware of what's at stake, and they're not going to pass the buck financially because of it.
 
Yes, in every transaction in which there is a profit, wealth shifts from buyer to seller. And yes, individual wealth, adjusted for inflation, is lower for the poor and middle classes today than in the past. At the same time corporations and the wealthy are richer than ever.

It's presently lower than a few times in the recent past. But the personal net worth and income both have risen steadily for at least the last century.

What you're looking at is the portion of new wealth accruing to different economic levels of the populace. By that measure, we're a good match for Latin America.

I beg to differ. Regulation has been gradually and systematically dismantled by the moderates and the right. That's why we had the housing bubble. That's why our financial system melted down. Wall Street bankers, oil companies, insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, for example, have been having a field day merrily exploiting the un-regulated/under-regulated business climate for years, and that's why we have the problems we have today.

They play games with regulations that have to do with massive amounts of money, but the trend in regulation is ever more, and more, and more, constantly increasing the burden on the poor, keeping them poor. One of the reasons for the huge gap between poor and rich is that the poor spend so much a higher portion of their income on the cost of regulation that they can't climb out of the swamp.

Regulation has increased the cost of food, furniture, housing, health, and everything else in everyday life. In some areas, the cost of regulation comes to nearly a quarter of the price. For the rich, that's no big deal; for the poor, it's crippling.

Oh, come now, Kuli. HCR opponents have been crying "tort reform" for years now. They insist that that's going to be some magic bullet to lower the cost of healthcare. To that I politely say "bullshit." Tort reform is just another way for government to regulate the consumer rather than regulating business, which is what's REALLY needed.

The "tort reform" that's usually pedaled is simplistic and foolish, tailored to protect business because it generally makes it harder to sue.

I've already shown that my concept does no such thing; in fact it would effectively pay people to sue companies. I've even considered the idea that whether or not the plaintiff should get its legal+ costs paid by the company ought to be a separate issue from the actual damages: if damages are awarded, those costs are automatically paid; if not, the jury would then consider whether the plaintiff had a reasonable cause to believe the company was at fault -- and if so, the company would pay the costs anyway.

Why should there be a limit on awards? How can the government arbitrarily decide what punitive damages should be? That's what our legal system is for.

Our legal system can get wacky -- that's what the legislature is for.

I have yet to see a reform proposal with limits that are rationally written on a level reaching fifth grade. The size of punitive damages should be tied to that of actual damages -- say, three times the size. I'd add something else in, though, to cover cases where the jury considers a company's behavior to be truly unconscionable: up to ten times the punitive damages awarded to the plaintiff to be awarded to some organization which exists to combat or mitigate the results of the sort of thing concerning which the suit was brought.

Okay, so you injure me, and I have $100,000 in medical expenses, plus I'm permanently disabled, never to work again. So, you're being very generous getting me compensated for my costs involved in bringing suit, but what's my future worth? I'll never be able to win that Nobel prize I was working toward. I'll never be able to father the 62nd President of the United States. I'll never be able to buy that private island I've had my heart set on. I won't be able to send my kid to Princeton.

Who decides what my future is worth? The government, for crying out loud? I think not.

Your future, as far as I'm concerned is actual damages. For that, the only limit I might consider is the most generous possible government pension and benefits -- in other words, you'd get cared for as well as the most distinguished U.S. Senator also drawing a military pension the equivalent of a colonel. More than that, I might consider excessive.

[/QUOTE]
Who decides what it costs the shrimpers and fishermen in future income? Is that to be decided by some arbitrary limit? Who decides what the damage to the ecosystem is worth? We're looking at the potential for devastation of the entire Gulf Coast for generations to come! What about the damage to the tourism industry? What's that worth???? Should BP, Halliburton and TransOcean be able to walk away from this horrific disaster for just the price of cleaning up the oil (which ain't gonna happen anyway. . . that genie's out of the bottle)?[/QUOTE]

Again, you're talking about actual damages -- and I accept no limit to those; in fact I would ditch the law saying that corporate officers aren't personally responsible, and allow their personal fortunes to be fair game.
 
No one's suggesting BP should be the arbiter of where their responsibility ends. What I'm saying is that you're giving them too little credit. They're keenly aware of what's at stake, and they're not going to pass the buck financially because of it.

Then why would ANYBODY be against the elimination of caps on their liability? People act as though that's somehow imposing some penalty, when, in fact, it's preventing them from getting off with the proverbial "slap on the wrist" for a disaster that has the potential of being the largest financial calamity in history. You have to remember this goes WAY beyond stopping the flow and cleaning up the oil. This gets into ecosystems, livelihoods and economies that can be devastated for many years to come, affecting millions of people.
 
Then why would ANYBODY be against the elimination of caps on their liability? People act as though that's somehow imposing some penalty, when, in fact, it's preventing them from getting off with the proverbial "slap on the wrist" for a disaster that has the potential of being the largest financial calamity in history. You have to remember this goes WAY beyond stopping the flow and cleaning up the oil. This gets into ecosystems, livelihoods and economies that can be devastated for many years to come, affecting millions of people.
Because this government has shown itself to be vindictive in its application of fines and other charges. I have no doubt that, given the opportunity, this administration would make a serious effort to punish BP through extra taxes beyond the cost of the disaster.
 
Because this government has shown itself to be vindictive in its application of fines and other charges. I have no doubt that, given the opportunity, this administration would make a serious effort to punish BP through extra taxes beyond the cost of the disaster.

"This government" has done no such thing. Cite a case. Go ahead.

This topic is about the effort to raise the cap on BP's liability. . . it is NOT about retribution. Punishment cannot be legislated. That's the job of the judiciary.
 
"This government" has done no such thing. Cite a case. Go ahead.

This topic is about the effort to raise the cap on BP's liability. . . it is NOT about retribution. Punishment cannot be legislated. That's the job of the judiciary.

Apparently you had your head in the sand when Obama proposed a vindictive tax against banks, regardless if they took public money, since they 'caused' the crisis.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1412282420100114
 
Apparently you had your head in the sand when Obama proposed a vindictive tax against banks, regardless if they took public money, since they 'caused' the crisis.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1412282420100114

Asking banks to repay the money used to bail them out by way of tax is hardly what I would call vindictive. It's not a fine. It's not a penalty. It's a tax based upon revenues that they received from the government due to the bailout.

Why the hell should tax payers be expected to foot this bill? It should come directly from the bank profits. Nothing "vindictive" about it. It's "fair."

Now, if Obama had proposed a "fine" that was punitive in nature, going above and beyond the money the banks received in bailout funds, THAT would be "vindictive."
 
Asking banks to repay the money used to bail them out by way of tax is hardly what I would call vindictive. It's not a fine. It's not a penalty. It's a tax based upon revenues that they received from the government due to the bailout.

Why the hell should tax payers be expected to foot this bill? It should come directly from the bank profits. Nothing "vindictive" about it. It's "fair."

Now, if Obama had proposed a "fine" that was punitive in nature, going above and beyond the money the banks received in bailout funds, THAT would be "vindictive."

Just for the record, it's not a matter of "repayment", because it's being levied against all large banks, not just the ones who got bailed out.

That can't really be called "fair".
 
Apparently you had your head in the sand when Obama proposed a vindictive tax against banks, regardless if they took public money, since they 'caused' the crisis.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1412282420100114

You use the term vindictive when nothing in your post or cite indicates why that term is accurate. You certainly don't explain your use of the term. What is it about the tax that makes it vindictive?
 
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