Shooting at Colorado high school

[Callum]

Lovely. Another school school, and then we get the 'Muhricah bashing, right on schedule.

Contact me when your countries are perfect.

No one is bashing. But there is no denying this is a uniquely American problem.

 

[G-Lexington]

The one thing that annoyed me about the entire thing (well, y'know, other than kids getting shot) was that people were saying "Why is this happening again?" Um, name ONE thing that's changed since the last Colorado shooting. And this no matter what you think the one "cause" of it all is.

Have we changed our stance on mental illness?
Have we altered the way we treat high schoolers?
Have we attempted to locate problematic teens and help them move away from such tendencies?
Have we changed our weapon laws?
Have we installed metal detectors and/or armed guards at our schools?

Not that I think all (or even any) of the above would "solve" the Colorado shooting issue. But the fact is - we literally haven't changed anything. The one change made? A ban on one type of gun. And the two congressmen who fronted the legislation were immediately kicked out of office via recall election, and the ban overturned. So literally, nothing's changed since the last one. So why wouldn't it continue?

Lex

 

[Stardreamer]

The one thing that annoyed me about the entire thing (well, y'know, other than kids getting shot) was that people were saying "Why is this happening again?" Um, name ONE thing that's changed since the last Colorado shooting. And this no matter what you think the one "cause" of it all is.

Have we changed our stance on mental illness?
Have we altered the way we treat high schoolers?
Have we attempted to locate problematic teens and help them move away from such tendencies?
Have we changed our weapon laws?
Have we installed metal detectors and/or armed guards at our schools?

Not that I think all (or even any) of the above would "solve" the Colorado shooting issue. But the fact is - we literally haven't changed anything. The one change made? A ban on one type of gun. And the two congressmen who fronted the legislation were immediately kicked out of office via recall election, and the ban overturned. So literally, nothing's changed since the last one. So why wouldn't it continue?

Lex

I don't think they banned any guns and the laws that was passed is still in effect. They passed laws providing for universal background checks (aimed at the much hyped gun show loophole) and a restriction on magazine sizes.

 

[Willie Boy]

Have we changed our stance on mental illness?

Yes and no. We have started, but its a work in progress. We have far to go.

Have we altered the way we treat high schoolers?

Nope. They're still treated as human youth. What should we treat them as?

Have we attempted to locate problematic teens and help them move away from such tendencies?

To an extent.

Have we changed our weapon laws?

Wouldn't make a difference if we did.

Have we installed metal detectors and/or armed guards at our schools?

In most cases that would be a yes to the detectors. In not as many we have a yes to the guards as well. The problem is there are ways around such. And with the prevalence of the internet intuitive youth are finding ready sources of information should they feel the need to circumvent "safety measures".

 

[Willie Boy]

Of course malevolence and evil have to be present but I feel that it is the easy access to weapons of all sorts which allows those feelings to manifest themselves. If the person is not feeling isolated, ignored, hard done by then they will not be spurred to wreak 'revenge'

True, then they'd just be spurred to wreak 'havoc'.

It appears in this case that all that sparked his outburst was being dropped from the debating society. Hardly a reason to react so badly but it was obviously the straw that broke the camel's back.

Not necessarily. It could simply be that he has grown up in the embrace of "Entitlement", that he deserves his every desire handed to him on a silver platter. HE wasn't good enough at debate because of it and got angry at being removed from the team. This kind of attitude is quite prevalent in today's youth..... not surprisingly it is concentrated here in the US, but is slowly leaching overseas, what with the easy flow of information/ideas over the internet.

There will emerge a whole raft of mental health issues in due course

Not every evil can be left at the feet of mental illness. That is far too often a catch-all that does more harm than good. Moral values are being removed from society which leaves no guidelines for those without personal moral values..... It starts with "everything's ok as long as you don't hurt anybody else..... Then you go back to devaluing others because they aren't you, or don't belong to your ideal of what constitutes a person. Its ok if they get hurt because they "don't matter", they aren't my kind. And so on......

 

[LeicsDom]

True, then they'd just be spurred to wreak 'havoc'.

Some might say that havoc is preferable to revenge

 

[LeicsDom]

Not necessarily. It could simply be that he has grown up in the embrace of "Entitlement", that he deserves his every desire handed to him on a silver platter. HE wasn't good enough at debate because of it and got angry at being removed from the team. This kind of attitude is quite prevalent in today's youth..... not surprisingly it is concentrated here in the US, but is slowly leaching overseas, what with the easy flow of information/ideas over the internet.

I think that here in the UK that sense is being cultivated by the stupid thinking in schools that competition is bad for children.
For instance at school sports days every child has to 'win'. Nobody is a loser. This is completely the wrong attituted to teach. Life is shit and is full of knock backs. Think what a shock it will be when they leave school and all of a sudden find they have to deal with rejection.

 

[Willie Boy]

Some might say that havoc is preferable to revenge

Some might be very wrong. Revenge at least has a reason and a purpose.... Havoc lacks both, yet is more severe.

I think that here in the UK that sense is being cultivated by the stupid thinking in schools that competition is bad for children.
For instance at school sports days every child has to 'win'. Nobody is a loser. This is completely the wrong attitute to teach. Life is shit and is full of knock backs. Think what a shock it will be when they leave school and all of a sudden find they have to deal with rejection.

We've been through that here in the US decades ago, but with the younger kids. By the time they reach High School its back to over competitiveness and win at all costs. Maybe it is that extra pressure suddenly AFTER being trained that competition is wrong that messes kids up. We need to find the healthy medium......

 

[Pcp3t3]

Thanks for the article. It's unfortunate. Sadly enough, many more shootings may happen in the future. Whenever I think of a school shooting, "Bowling for Columbine" comes to mind.

 

[chrisrobin]

When I saw a picture of the deceased perp on my TV, my first impression was that he didn't have the face of a killer, which makes the event even more creepy.

 

[Alnitak]

Single murders are thousands of times more common than multiple killings, but these are the ones that get media attention. Oh look more than one murder at a time! Wow, nevermind there are almost 15,000 in the US every year.

 

[Callum]

To the contrary:

This list is completed redacted of the too-numerous American shootings, but it proves just the same that this sort of killing is not a uniquely American phenomenon.

But, conceded that the incidence is much higher in the U.S., indicating a much more severe social ill here.

Those incidences are far and few between, across a dozen countries; and shootings are going to happen anywhere since no country is perfect. As an example, the last significant mass shooting in Canada was 24 years ago in Montreal. The US has had what, 23 mass shootings since Sandy Hook? Good Lord! Canada has the same adversarial society, socio-economic disparities, huge mental health stigma and the exact same entertainment industry. It doesn't have the Second Amendment or a lengthy history of violence. The incidence of shootings is the importance here. So, yes. It's uniquely American.

 

[gsdx]

The Canadian shootings in 1999 and 2006 were not 20 years ago.

I can't speak for other countries of course, but in Canada, those events were extremely shocking, terrifying, and are remembered to this day. They had an enormous impact on us. They changed us.

As an outsider to the American tragedies, it is almost a 'here we go again' or 'not another one' atmosphere. They don't really mean anything except to those directly involved. It is almost as though Americans have come to accept them as part of their lives, something which cannot be changed.

 

[Callum]

I can't speak for other countries of course, but in Canada, those events were extremely shocking, terrifying, and are remembered to this day. They had an enormous impact on us. They changed us.

As an outsider to the American tragedies, it is almost a 'here we go again' or 'not another one' atmosphere. They don't really mean anything except to those directly involved. It is almost as though Americans have come to accept them as part of their lives, something which cannot be changed.

Dawson has a fraction of the importance of the Montreal Massacre. We have not had a mass shooting on such a scale since 1989 (and even if you wanted to include the two above, that's one shooting every 8 YEARS). No refuting it's unique to America, you can argue the semantics all you want.

 

[MoufOfKhaos]

If it was unique to America, it wouldn't happen in Canada.

Try to catch up here. Comparing frequencies is not the same thing as declaring the problem nonexistent, as you seem to be hinting at with your rather benign scolding - it's not semantics if the problems we both face are recent.

 

[gsdx]

The events are certainly not unique to the US, but the regularity of them and the seeming acceptance of them is unique.

 

[darden]

for what it's worth, Canada's only got 3,200 high schools compared to America's +25,000

I express some resignation just because violence is inevitable. I'm all for gun regulations, but I can't think of any one that would stop a determined teen from stealing a legally-purchased and registered gun from a family member. if a teen is unstable and out on a mission, he could just as easily look up directions on the internet to make pipe bombs using materials obtained at Home Depot.

I can't quite get up in arms and support knee-jerk reaction reforms when gun violence rates as a whole (including "spree-shootings") are decreasing. statistically, my high school back in the late 90's was probably more dangerous than a high school today, I just didn't know it at the time because we didn't have the internet and cable news breathlessly reporting and giving shooters publicity any time there's a single incident.

lbr, if something like this happened 20 years ago -- student walks into a school, injures a student, and kills himself -- it probably wouldn't have made the news anywhere outside of local papers with an audience of a few thousand readers.

 

[Alnitak]

To our Canadian commenters, I disagree that we "accept" the shootings. Crime occurs every day in both our countries. Our populations and demographic mixes are entirely different. Our legal systems are different. Our bills of rights and definitions of freedoms are different.

Nunavut has a very high murder rate Then again it doesn't have the most pleasant climate.

In Albuquerque, at Emcore, the company I worked for a few years before, a man sought out his ex-girlfriend to kill her because of their ongoing divorce and custody rights over their two young children. He was mentally ill, but functional enough to have been a recent employee. When he arrived, he waited and found her outside on break at a picnic table. He shot her, and her female coworker as he walked up. He then shot out a front glass panel in order to bypass the security lock requiring badge access on the front door. He entered the building and began shooting people as he encountered them. He only killed two, but wounded others. My friend was and HR employee there and she was shot twice in the legs, but survived.

The shooter's parents knew he was no longer taking his medications for his mental disorder, but had no recourse in law, or were unwilling to press it.

Outlawing his access to handguns would not have saved anyone that day.

How is it that you come to this conclusion?

Are you intimating that he would have found a handgun by illegal means?

 

[Alnitak]

Australians might remember a little episode called the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996, which precipitated in a law authorizing a mandatory buy back and the then conservative Howard government assumed ownership of 660,000 guns. Within four years, the percentage of armed robberies involving guns was halved from 27.8% to 14% and the overall murder rate with firearms has similarly halved.

 

[darden]

Australians might remember a little episode called the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996, which precipitated in a law authorizing a mandatory buy back and the then conservative Howard government assumed ownership of 660,000 guns. Within four years, the percentage of armed robberies involving guns was halved from 27.8% to 14% and the overall murder rate with firearms has similarly halved.

different countries are different... just to compare the scale, the Australian gun buyback destroyed about 710,000 guns between 1996 and 2002. on the other hand, there are an estimate 300,000,000 guns in America.

if my quick and fuzzy math is right, the Australian buyback cost the country $500 million. assuming the cost per gun in the US was the same, you're looking at $213.6 billion? my impression is that the Aussie constitution also makes it a lot easier for the State to force citizens to give up their private property; voluntary gun buybacks in the US seem to be largely ineffective, from what I've seen.