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Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Simple if they are head of something that pays big money, venal and greedy - if they are on a blog saying "libtard" idiot fanatic.

Republitard rolls off the tongue much better than libtard. ;)
 
Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

GO one step further "RepuliTURD!"

..if we are going to be puerile, let's do it right...
 
I probably do a poor job of distinguishing between people fanatic from personal financial interest and people who are fanatic from delusions they can fight the U.S. military one day with their handgun because they're so intertwined and say the same things that make no sense.

It's easy - if they're rich, it's financial interest.
 
Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Look like this thread has turned into another baiting thread.
 
Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.

I caught a part of something he said yesterday. He said there should not be the memorial they held yesterday. That was all I caught and know nothing more about it. But that's enough.
 
Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

And what would that prove? Nothing has changed about irresponsible use of speech and its consequences since the Constitution was written.

It's a CLARIFICATION of and a limitation on what can be construed, by the wording of the Constitution, as an absolute right.

I was responding to Kuli's contention that there is nothing MALLEABLE in the Constitiution and wanted to point out that there was quite a long period of time between the authoring of the Bill of Rights and the 1919 SCOTUS decision to limit free speech in certain cases presenting a "clear and present danger":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States

If that's not malleable I don't know what is

Everyone agrees that the free speech we were promised stops at libel and reckless endangerment yet GUNS get a free pass with no limitations or controls whatsoever?
 
The yelling fire in a theater thing has always been a problematic example of limiting speech, it is really more an example of the balance of rights and responsibility since as far as I know there is no restriction to me yelling the word 'fire' if (as the result of responsible action before hand) no panic ensues to cause harm. And if one caused needless death and injury in a crowded theater in the founding father's time, the consequences would be the same as today. So as far as that particular example goes, there has been no malleability at all.

But I'm not aware of anyone who argues that there are not responsibilities to the second amendment right any more than there are to speech.
 
The yelling fire in a theater thing has always been a problematic example of limiting speech, it is really more an example of the balance of rights and responsibility since as far as I know there is no restriction to me yelling the word 'fire' if (as the result of responsible action before hand) no panic ensues to cause harm. And if one caused needless death and injury in a crowded theater in the founding father's time, the consequences would be the same as today. So as far as that particular example goes, there has been no malleability at all.

But I'm not aware of anyone who argues that there are not responsibilities to the second amendment right any more than there are to speech.

You must not listen to many gun nuts then. And I'm serious about that. Because it's really really incredible to me that someone isn't aware that there isn't a strong sentiment out there of over my dead body about any form of sensible regulation. It does not help that the NRA makes sure most of its members believe that any step towards regulations for any reason (to control spree or school shootings or anything else) is merely the first step to Democrats taking all your guns.
 
And if one caused needless death and injury in a crowded theater in the founding father's time, the consequences would be the same as today. So as far as that particular example goes, there has been no malleability at all.

But can you FIND IT in the Constitution?

You're proving my point.

You admit that there are COMMON SENSE laws to be enacted separately from the Constitution in reference to the rights listed, yes?
 
With all due respect, opinterph, arguing the legal definition of "clear and present danger" in regards to the first amendment is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that our Constitutional rights do not, and have never, existed in a vacuum.

Whether those clarifications take a while to become, well, "clarified" (as in a 1919 Supreme Court decision) or, as Stardreamer asserts, they were always "implied," the fact remains that they exist.
 
But can you FIND IT in the Constitution?

You're proving my point.

You admit that there are COMMON SENSE laws to be enacted separately from the Constitution in reference to the rights listed, yes?

I believe I have said that but also pointed out that any law that restricts an enumerated right must meet a higher standard of 'common sense'. While there is a certain amount of flexibility around the edges of a right, to significantly change the intent of an enumerated right requires you use the methods the founders laid out to do so, the intentionally difficult process of passing an amendment.
 
… the legal definition of "clear and present danger" … is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that our Constitutional rights do not, and have never, existed in a vacuum.

I don’t dispute your point. My intention was to demonstrate the importance of interpretation more generally and perhaps note how that relates to the competing concepts of “original meaning” and that of a “living,” or evolving meaning.


Unfortunately, under [the intended meaning of the framers at the time the Constitution was written], women would not be voting today, nor would non-landowners, and blacks would be human property.

To the extent that the Constitution has been amended, the amendments ARE the Constitution. The document itself allows for changes; however, those changes arguably require a formal process (as opposed to being merely re-interpreted). [Link]


NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable" -- that's the anti-liberty position from liberals who want it to "evolve", so they can change the meaning without changing the law.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
 
I don’t dispute your point. My intention was to demonstrate the importance of interpretation more generally and perhaps note how that relates to the competing concepts of “original meaning” and that of a “living,” or evolving meaning.




To the extent that the Constitution has been amended, the amendments ARE the Constitution. The document itself allows for changes; however, those changes arguably require a formal process (as opposed to being merely re-interpreted). [Link]


Very little here is actually in dispute because Kulindahr and I agree that the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee free, unrestricted and unregulated access for anyone of any qualification (or lack thereof) to firearms. It seems to be his position that Congress is not only entitled but perhaps has shirked its responsibility to create a more universal standard of regulation of access under its right to "regulate the militia."

I think the dispute has only ever been perhaps my (mis)understanding that Kulindahr supported the notion too frequently touted by gun advocates publicly or nationally, which often is a message (undoubtedly NRA inspired) that even those few regulations that do exist, let alone any sensibly proposed ones to curtail excessive domestic violence, are either illegal/unconstitutional, or a slippery slope to complete confiscation which should be opposed in either case, and that this position is expressly supported by the 2nd Amendment. So I think I do owe Kulindahr an apology for misunderstanding his position for so long-- although it has certainly from my angle seemed like it took this long to get a coherent picture of it out of him. ;)

With regard to the "malleability" of the Constitution, of course an actual change in meaning requires formal amendment, but I do not believe the discussion has (at least it was not my intent) been about the mechanics of our government but rather about the rigid position that has been discussed here, and can certainly be witnessed in the greater gun debate nationally, that certain picked-and-chosen elements of the Constitution should never change (with or without Amendment) because, and forgive me for phrasing it this way, "the Founding Fathers said so." And whenever a particular position seems to accept or reject even the discussion of certain changes predicated on what the Founding Fathers intended in the 18th century, I think we have to grapple with the fact that these were not perfect people who gave us a flawless, already perfect, "already progressed enough" set of laws or liberties that we could photograph as a statue and use for the rest of time. And human bondage is an incredibly easy example of why what the Founding Fathers enshrined into law should not be handcuffs against changes going forward in anyone's mindset.
 
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