Should a Christian "bear arms"?

[JackFTwist]

I don't begrudge you your faith Mr Twist, but I too grow tired of the continued slams from the VERY vocal, and VERY wrong, fundamentalists who have seemingly, so successfully hijacked what I think was supposed to be a less violent and damaging way.

But is that happening to you HERE? If we have fundamentalists HERE in JUB who are misusing the things of faith to be violent and damaging? If so I don't see it so please point it out to me so that I can join you in objecting to it, and have your back for you when it happens.

But I suspect that is not happening HERE but HERE you and others practice continued slams of all faith and it is done not to the people who are guilty of wrong doing but the very people who are on your side, who understand, who have felt the same things, and are doing everything possible to redress that from within the faith community. The people of faith on this board are NOT the enemy and yet we get all the slings and arrows for things that we do not believe, do not confess, do not preach, do not practice, do not countenance. And it gets really tiresome, to be attacked all the time in a place for which for us is also supposed to be community.

Healing might come when you take the attacks to where they need to be taken, and not against your allies, because I would stand with you in every way when you speak truth to the forces that have hurt you. But when we get slams on the ones who love you (and all who have been hurt) and want to stand with you, I don't understand that.

 

[RationalLunacy]

@JackFTwist, Kulindahr will no doubt be back shortly to inform you that, unless you have a thorough working knowledge of Ancient Hebrew, Koine Greek, Aramaic, et, etc, you haven't a hope in Hell of ever knowing what 'the Scriptures' actually say and mean.

You forgot to include me! You forgot to include me! You forgot to include me!

 

[kallipolis]

Jesus of Nazareth said that He would send The Helper (The Holy Spirit) to guide us into all truth. Christians are invited to listen too and follow the inspiration, of The Spirit of Truth.

Attempting to decipher Holy Scripture according to our prejudices(pro or anti bearing of arms), invites the sort of response that has created some 30,000 Christian denominations.

 

[kallipolis]

Gareth,

A famous person said (probably Oscar Wilde) that listening to good advice does not always translate into that advice being implemented. Free will is a living reality that separates the nature of homo sapiens, from those whose life is led by instinct.

 

[Kulindahr]

Pianist, that's a very cogent and accurate criticism of today's "evangelicals".

 

[mike_n_herrin]

More accurate: "Don't murder". I already noted the given exceptions.

can you give the citation for the exceptions, because i don't see them the way you put it. this is what i read

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death." Exodus 21.12

Of course having said that bit about not killing or murdering...exodus then goes on to say all the times when you should kill someone anyway.

 

[Kulindahr]

can you give the citation for the exceptions, because i don't see them the way you put it. this is what i read

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death." Exodus 21.12

That's one right there: accidental killing is not punishable by death.

It goes along with this one:

Numbers 35:11
then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, that the manslayer who has killed any person unintentionally may flee there.

and this:

[if] the blood avenger finds him outside the border of his city of refuge, and the blood avenger kills the manslayer, he will not be guilty of blood

The place of refuge is a theme all through Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua.

Put the last together with the dictum that failing to stop an attacker makes you as guilty as the attacker, and there's a clear case for self-defense.

 

[Kurn]

When I was a Christian it was from the time I was sitting in the pew to the time I was out the door. What's the problem? Just keep the firearm in the glove compartment when you're praisin' the Lord.

When I woke up to Buddha I find a way to make traction.

Seriously, use all the intelligence that you have and you will fulfill all the Law and be perfect.
And there is no intelligence without compassion.

 

[Soilwork]

Sure.

Take them to church.

Hey, let them play with them in Sunday School.

Jesus says it's ok.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

That's one right there: accidental killing is not punishable by death.

It goes along with this one:
...
Put the last together with the dictum that failing to stop an attacker makes you as guilty as the attacker, and there's a clear case for self-defense.

how do you put them together when they don't follow each other in the text right after the other? you are picking which texts to put together to make your point. seems like the point of any one text should be in the context of the chapter it's in. that chapter in exodus goes on to say when you can just kill people and doesn't say what you said about it being in defense of your self or country, or whatever.

now i don't know what the Koran says but one certainly can't use the Bible to say one way or the other about bearing arms, because it contradicts itself dozens of times.

 

[LatinoSTAR]

If they shoot themselves with it, then its alright with me!!

 

[JackFTwist]

(timed out)

1. I also remind you, that as a proclaimed Christian, you represent such and must be prepared to take some heat on behalf of the team. Generally speaking, and to be clear, this is NOT addressed specifically to you, I seem to recall some scripture stating that Christians are to rejoice if they come under fire for his name's sake.

2. I too often hear about the Christian right having to put up with shit and abuse and being unfairly treated. It comes with the territory but they seem to have forgotten that, caught up as they are in, as mentioned, kingdom building, hyperfaith, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it, being a King's Kid, they're owed, because god is FOR them and so who can be against them so material blessing as proof of gods approval and being in the center of his will and on the "cutting edge" of what god is doing, Jesus spoke of humility, grace and forgiveness.

3. I don't ever recall Jesus encouraging his disciples to be born again, and then either enter politics, or 4. influence the political process to mold and shape the laws of the land to represent or interpret what they feel or felt his so called will is or to bring about the Kingdom to Come in the here and now. There needs to be healing in the land, not selfish gain.

Tares among the wheat, wolves among the sheep, false shepards and hirlings fleecing the sheep and not caring about them, but lives are being damaged in the process and5. I see little reconciliation or true healing going on. 6. Few stand up and put the lie to these men and women professing a clearer understanding of god's will in the world but who scorn the true teachings of the faith.

That said, should Christians bear arms? I suspect each "Christian" must needs search his own heart for the truth of it as it applies to themselves and let the Spirit, should he/she/it exist, be the True Arbiter of the matter.

1. Yes, I am a "proclaimed Christian" and I'll take shit for the sake of the faith all the time but I also have the right to tell someone they have playing the same song for a very long time and some new material is needed.

2. Only from them do you hear that. But you know what? America has a right wing and just because America has a right wing doesn't make all of America and all Americans into right wingers. Just because the Church has a right wing does not make that apply to all of us. Draw some analogies of your own with the gay community - do a few speak for all?

3. There is reference to that in John 3. I would suggest it is not a universal reference and the significance of it is not remotely what the born again folk claim, and they fail to grasp its Scriptural meaning - but the phrase does exist.

4. That apply to Dr Martin Luther King and the faith community which stood up and paid the price when advocating for justice and civil rights? (And it was the faith community that led that struggle.) That apply to the faith community that opposed the war in Vietnam or opposes the war in Iraq? Oh yeah - you can find some fool who supports the war but then you have to claim Bush speaks for you - fair is fair. Will you join the clergy and lay folk who demonstrate outside the SOA, or are fighting for equal rights and marriage equality for gays and lesbians? I have posted those links so many times and they have been ignored so many times because they are those who don't want to to be confused with facts, or troubled by reality.

5. If you don't look, you don't see. The witness of many of your brothers in this community is ignored as is the work that is taking place everywhere. Google Open and Affirming, or Reconciled in Christ, or Lutherans Concerned or any of a number of sites that speak to the ongoing reconciliation going on. I bet when I posted those links in the past you never checked them.

6. Bullshit.


I have no doubt that you have experienced real hurt and pain. I have experienced that, and more. It was my calling to fight back from within with a righteous fury for everyone who has been hurt, from within or without. Faith communities have done wrong here - but so have the communities and societies that denounced faith. Tell me about the reality of treatment of gays in revolutionary France, or pagan societies, or in the anti-faith Nazi government or in th atheist state of your choice. Could it be that the problem is one of human nature and not particular to the faith or non-faith communities? In a world which is struggling to come of age in these matters, there is much great work being done in the faith communities that is impacting the wider culture and that is where the answers will come.


Or another way: nothing you have experienced as a gay white man remotely approaches what African Americans have experienced, or Native Americans, in slavery, brutality, genocide. Did you pause on Thanksgiving to reflect on what European ancestry Americans did to Native Americans? If every black or native American who posted here were constantly and repeatedly damning you because you are white, how long would it take before you tried to say that there was something else that needed to be said, at least in the sense of new understandings of justice expressed by you as a white American? Don't dish what you will not eat.

 

[Croynan]

maybe the Supreme Court will give us a clue to the answer to the question at hand when its ruling comes down in April or May of 2008​

.

eM.​

 

[Soilwork]

Give it a rest, Jack.

don't attack people who are bitter enough from the mistreatment they've received from your kind.

Go attack the people who caused the hurt, anger, bitterness, resentment and hate. Don't blame the victims.

I often wonder if you fight Christians and chastize them as much as you do around here.

 

[Jory]

Jesus also lived over 2000 years ago during the Bronze Age, and they didn't have guns then.

Sorry the late bronze age was a 1,000 years before Jesus

 

[JackFTwist]

Give it a rest, Jack.

don't attack people who are bitter enough from the mistreatment they've received from your kind.

Go attack the people who caused the hurt, anger, bitterness, resentment and hate. Don't blame the victims.

I often wonder if you fight Christians and chastize them as much as you do around here.

Give it a rest, Jasun.

no one is being attacked other than what you are doing here - don't try to bully people who get tired of your riding a high horse all the time - and fuck you with your reference to "your kind" - as one of your threads stated, as you stated, you are an asshole - you are clueless when you operate out of your hate

go attack injustice, oppression, do something in life than than accuse others of doing nothing when you intentioanlly have no idea what others are doing - and guess what, no one is accountable to you but I am sure we'd all like a list of all your ongoing efforts for justice and healing -

you may wonder all you want, that question has been answered several times, but you are always too busy lecturing, hectoring, and chastising to hear any voice other than your own

curious that somewhere around 90% of what you post is really right on and I can deeply appreciate and respect you, admire you, but that 10% where you act as if only you have any moral high ground, or when you refuse to accept that others have different life experiences than yours, when it is your hate that speaks, that ends up screaming more loudly than the rest

 

[hotdog1846]

Could it be that the problem is one of human nature and not particular to the faith or non-faith communities?

I don't intend to fan the flames, and I doubt what I'm going to say will soothe the wounds either. But here goes...

Yeah, I think the issue is basically one of human nature, not particular to religious communities.

I read a letter to the editor yesterday in which the writer was claiming that homosexuality is unnatural and the things said publicly by religious people in my city (which has achieved the dubious distinction of having a nationwide reputation for intolerance and homogeneity) represent firmly held Biblical convictions.

That may be so ... but there's a much much broader Biblical theme of unconditional love and acceptance (gee, I think that's the core of the Gospel) and that humanity is supposed to strive to pass that unconditional love and acceptance to others. Such unconditional love coming from human beings seems mighty unnatural to me.

Point is, just because something's unnatural doesn't make it automatically evil. And for those of us who are homosexual, such IS natural.

Anyway, even though I don't think the problem is particular to religious organizations, it's undeniable that the national organized anti-gay political machinery is centered around religious apparatuses. And, locally, where I'm at, the overwhelming majority of Christian organizations do what they can to discourage homosexual relationships ... unhealthy as well as healthy ones. Even the moderates have some form of "don't ask don't tell".

Somehow I don't see the Gospel in much, if any, of all this "Christian" activity.

But what I've seen locally is that when anybody other than a small, well-organized, highly cohesive religious group stands up for the Gospel on behalf of GLBTs, the divisiveness that results threatens to tear the organizations apart. Whatever good the larger, less cohesive organizations could do in the community (feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, etc) would be destroyed.

Sucks, but that's the way it is. And that's how it is in most of middle America. The best it gets is "don't ask don't tell" and, for a GLBT for whom that isn't tolerable, all too often the only real option is to bail out of traditional Christianity altogether and seek the Gospel in other venues, maybe seek out the MCC, maybe (as a form of self-defense) become an agnostic or atheist and distance oneself from the whole thing altogether.

So, I just re-read the thread title. Weren't we talking about guns somewhere?

 

[Kulindahr]

how do you put them together when they don't follow each other in the text right after the other? you are picking which texts to put together to make your point. seems like the point of any one text should be in the context of the chapter it's in. that chapter in exodus goes on to say when you can just kill people and doesn't say what you said about it being in defense of your self or country, or whatever.

now i don't know what the Koran says but one certainly can't use the Bible to say one way or the other about bearing arms, because it contradicts itself dozens of times.

I'm not "picking" -- I went through every passage in the O.T. with the word "kill" in it (I was lazy; I used the New American Standard).

 

[Kulindahr]

When I was a Christian it was from the time I was sitting in the pew to the time I was out the door.

My condolences.

And there is no intelligence without compassion.

Which is part of why legitimate gun courses never teach "Shoot to kill".

This thread makes me want to dig through my DVDs to find one of my favorite movies.

​

That Latin is atrocious.
So's the English -- unless that's supposed to be a play on Matt Shepard?

Give it a rest, Jack. ....

I often wonder if you fight Christians and chastize them as much as you do around here.

If he's like me, he spends substantially more time and effort chastizing and lambasting the Christians who don't act much like Jesus.

Give it a rest, Jasun.

no one is being attacked other than what you are doing here - don't try to bully people who get tired of your riding a high horse all the time - and fuck you with your reference to "your kind" - as one of your threads stated, as you stated, you are an asshole - you are clueless when you operate out of your hate

go attack injustice, oppression, do something in life than than accuse others of doing nothing when you intentioanlly have no idea what others are doing - and guess what, no one is accountable to you but I am sure we'd all like a list of all your ongoing efforts for justice and healing -

you may wonder all you want, that question has been answered several times, but you are always too busy lecturing, hectoring, and chastising to hear any voice other than your own

curious that somewhere around 90% of what you post is really right on and I can deeply appreciate and respect you, admire you, but that 10% where you act as if only you have any moral high ground, or when you refuse to accept that others have different life experiences than yours, when it is your hate that speaks, that ends up screaming more loudly than the rest

Thanks for saying that more... politely and thoroughly than I would have.
I don't know if Jasun's is a hate that comes from pain, or what, but it gets old really fast.

Jasun, think on this: Mr. "One-Note" gets tuned out really fast. When all you ever bring to discussions like this (and on bisexuals, and others) is abusive arrogant hate, you're Mr. One-Note.

That attitude of yours, if I were sitting on the fence on this issue (the thread), would make me come down on the side of being armed and carrying: if there's that kind of hate out there, I want to be prepared.​

 

[sparky95]

My condolences.



Which is part of why legitimate gun courses never teach "Shoot to kill".



That Latin is atrocious.
So's the English -- unless that's supposed to be a play on Matt Shepard?



If he's like me, he spends substantially more time and effort chastizing and lambasting the Christians who don't act much like Jesus.



Thanks for saying that more... politely and thoroughly than I would have.
I don't know if Jasun's is a hate that comes from pain, or what, but it gets old really fast.

Jasun, think on this: Mr. "One-Note" gets tuned out really fast. When all you ever bring to discussions like this (and on bisexuals, and others) is abusive arrogant hate, you're Mr. One-Note.

That attitude of yours, if I were sitting on the fence on this issue (the thread), would make me come down on the side of being armed and carrying: if there's that kind of hate out there, I want to be prepared.

Mr One-Note puts people off a particular issues, Kulindahr? Perhaps you should note that yourself with some of your own issues. For example,one of the earlier posts on this thread that has now been deleted!