Should those who rely on govt. assistance be able to keep their lottery winnings?

[Alpha1851]

You need to learn to take your lawyer hat off every once in a while and be a human being.

Fair enough. And sometimes, you need to take your emotional hat off, and look at things objectively. Sometimes cold logic, rather than care and compassion, is the way to go. And sometimes, being able to view all sides of the argument, is the way to reach the best decision.

 

[Alpha1851]

And I still think you need to get over this petty bullshit about someone using a dollar hoping they'll win something to get off welfare as soon as possible. Would you rather they invest that dollar in the stock market or open a business with it?

Just as I made a judgment call about someone I don't know, you are too. From his discussion, I determined that he often spends money where he shouldn't. On the other hand, you've determined that he only used one dollar to purchase a lottery ticket and that he doesn't do this often. You've also determined that he bought the ticket in the hopes that he could get off welfare. We both made judgment calls, but atleast I witnessed him.

 

[Alpha1851]

Then please tell me how many things he can spend that dollar on? Tell me where he can invest it where he can make a huge profit and hopefully even pay back the Govt. How would you spend that dollar if you were in his position?

I would've spent the dollar on my non-existent kids.

Your still assuming that this fella only spent one dollar. I went on the assumption that if he's complaining about the cost of his children, and relies on food stamps, but spends money on a lottery ticket, would he be able to go off public assistance if he managed his money more effectively. If he spent money that he couldn't afford to waste this time, then he probably does it on other occasions. This one transaction is representative of his spending habits. I jumped to a lot of conclusions. On the other hand, you're assuming that the fella only spent one dollar on one lottery ticket and that this is a rare occurrence. On most other occasions, this fella budgets very carefully. You've jumped to a lot of conclusions as well. Who the hell knows which one of us is right.

For me, it's not about the single dollar or the single lottery ticket, it's about life long spending habits.

 

[Alpha1851]

And you are the one that feels that people should pay back the little money they got from welfare.|

You're not reading my posts are you. I love ya Elvin and I'm glad to see ya posting on JUB again (welcome back), but I've stated numerous times that I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

 

[StlKj]

I've actually asked classes before how many of them buy lottery tickets each week. Very often it is my poorest students who buy them weekly. They are also often people who don't have savings accounts. If they buy only one ticket a week (and most buy more than that, but let's just suppose), then in ten years they've spent 520 dollars on lottery tickets. That's 520 dollars they would have in savings.

We also look at what that coke and bag of chips would cost them. If it's roughly two dollars, and they do that only once a week, they've spent 104 a year on chips and soda. With their 52 a year for tickets added in, they've now spent 156 dollars a year on a ticket, chips and a soda, or 1,560 dollars in ten years.

Then I ask them how many of them would like to have 1,560 dollars in savings? You can probably imagine how many would. We also look at how much money they'd have if they didn't smoke a carton of cigarette's a week or eat out at fast food restaurants several times a week. It's often an eye opening experience when students realize that in ten years time they've smoked a car and eaten a great vacation.

And this is what pisses me off--my students are in college, and this is the first time anyone has ever helped them to see this. By the time they've gotten to me, they've covered the civil war multiple times in grade/high school, and they've been forced to read Shakespeare numerous times (which I happen to love, but many of them hate), but not a single person has ever taught them how to budget and save.

I realize this doesn't have a lot to do with the topic at hand, except it does just drive home to me how much the system conspires against our poor to keep them that way, rather than educate them in such a way that they have a fighting chance.

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>Again, this is not true. There are lottery tickets that cost up to a $20.

She hasn't said one way or the other. Most lottery tickets, however, cost $1. I'm guessing if the lottery ticket cost $20, she would have said so (or said "He spent $20 on lottery tickets.")

And you know what they say. If you're under 30 and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're over 30 and aren't a conservative, you have no brain.

Lex

 

[Alpha1851]

Hmmm, I determind that it was 1 dollar because that is how much a lottery ticket costs.
Then you are not just making a "judgment call" but you are also making assumptions as to how much money he had and how often he buys a lottery ticket. And you are also making assumptions as to what he should be doing with the little money he has.
And you are that started the thread. Not me.
And you are the one that feels that people should pay back the little money they got from welfare.|

The highlighted portion?

Let's assume that my assumption is correct. Well, public assistance isn't free. Our taxes pay for it. As the economy continues to tank, more and more families are relying on public assistance to get them through. Funds are limited and many programs are operating w/ a deficit. As such, the rules governing who can receive these benefits, how long it can be allotted, and how much can be allotted are become narrower. This fella might be the last person who could receive benefits, and b/c he receives them, another fella cannot. There's only so much to go around and he's taking up one slot. If he spent one dollar, this one time, on a lottery ticket, then it wouldn't really have a large effect. But, we know that the majority of lottery ticket buyers are poorer folks, so let's assume that he makes a semi-regular habit of spending money on these tickets. Those dollars add up. That's food he could buy. Medicine he could afford. Overtime, he could go off govt. assistance and another family could get help.

Additionally, if the intercepted winnings went into public assistance programs, many other families could receive help. Take from one person and distribute it to the poor so all can benefit, similar to our progressive tax. Eventually, this money would dry up, but perhaps it would be enough to get us through the economic crisis.

Admittedly I jumped to a negative conclusion about the customer. I also recognized that in the past, I would've jumped to the same concl. about the fella that you did, but now that I'm paying higher taxes, I feel differently. Although I support public assistance, I'm more likely to become aggravated when someone spends the money they do have on items they don't need to survive (survive=the basics). I know people who abuse the system, but I also know many more who do not. Plus, I voted against the lottery, believe it's a tax on the poor and encourages gambling addiction and crime, so I'm biased to begin w/. Thus, I realize my opinion on which is the more "just" response is effected by my environment and circumstances and isn't reliable in terms of which option would most benefit society as a whole. Therefore, I'm more interested in which decision would be the most cost effective in the long run.

 

[StlKj]

>>>Again, this is not true. There are lottery tickets that cost up to a $20.

She hasn't said one way or the other. Most lottery tickets, however, cost $1. I'm guessing if the lottery ticket cost $20, she would have said so (or said "He spent $20 on lottery tickets.")

And you know what they say. If you're under 30 and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're over 30 and aren't a conservative, you have no brain.

Lex

As some on here have surmised, I'm brainless. At least one person who recently attacked me in PMs would agree with that assessment.

 

[kevbo]

^ Shall we take a trip to Emerald City?

 

[Alpha1851]

She hasn't said one way or the other. Most lottery tickets, however, cost $1. I'm guessing if the lottery ticket cost $20, she would have said so (or said "He spent $20 on lottery tickets.")

I don't know how much the ticket cost. It was several scratch offs b/c he used his keys to scratch the silver stuff off and the tickets were divided (more than two, but not sure how many over), but he asked for one lottery ticket, so I'm assuming it all equaled up to one. I didn't pay attn to the cost or whether he won anything. I've never purchased a ticket, so I have no personal knowledge about the cost either. They could've been cheap. It's not just about this one person though.

The amount he spent seems to matter to some of you. If this fella spent $20 regularly on lottery tickets, would that impact your opinion? Does it sway you more than if the fella spent $1 regularly on lottery tickets? Does the amount spent matter more than the frequency of purchases?

Recently in NY, an individual sued after a portion of his lottery winnings were intercepted to pay back the prior benefits he received. The cost of defending potential lawsuits would need to be factored in as well when considering which option is the most cost effective.

 

[StlKj]

^ Shall we take a trip to Emerald City?

Why, yes, let's!

 

[G-Lexington]

OK. They don't all cost a dollar. Everyone who said "he spent a dollar" or "they mostly cost a dollar" are making arguments based on insufficient data and guesswork. But, really, aren't you used to that by now?

>>>As some on here have surmised, I'm brainless. At least one person who recently attacked me in PMs would agree with that assessment.

Who knows. That may change. You might just be a bit slow. We don't all progress at the same rate.

Lex

 

[Alpha1851]

It's not just the fact that he receives food stamps and bought a lottery ticket that aggravated. That in itself, I wouldn't have even noticed. We were in line to pay, not having a chat. It was his loud complaining about the cost of his kids, asking if the store accepted food stamps since he didn't have cash, coupled w/ the lottery ticket purchase that got me. If you're complaining that your kids are draining you dry and you can't afford to support them, and it was basic needs not decadent expenses that he listed off, then why are you buying a lottery ticket?

 

[StlKj]

Today I pulled up at a 7-11 to get gas. I saw a man go in while I was standing there, but I didn't pay attention to the car in which he arrived. I pumped my gas, went in, got cash from the ATM (which he was standing next to, filling out his lottery number forms), and proceeded to buy a few items. When I got to the register I had to wait in line behind him. His clothes were tattered and dirty; he spent at least three dollars on lottery tickets, as that's how many sheets were inserted into the machine by the worker. He didn't buy anything else. I purchased my items and left right behind him--to see him get into the waiting taxicab.

I don't know if this man is poor. I don't know if perhaps he was out running errands and just asked the cab driver to stop for a few minutes so he could get his weekly or monthly tickets. I don't know anything more than what I've just outlined here.

Except I do know that my heart ached just a little, and I hoped for his sake that he wins big.

 

[G-Lexington]

And where does the line sit?

Should people on food stamps spend nothing - and I mean NOTHING - on "luxuries"? And what's a luxury, anyway? I'm not sure it'd be easy to definitely say things are either "necessities" or "luxuires". I guess if one were to rank items on a scale from "necessity" to "luxury". lottery tickets would be closer to the "luxury" extreme than most other things. But what about other things? Candy bars, movie tickets, CDs? Yeah, people near the poverty line probably shouldn't spend most of their money on those. But should they spend NONE of it on those? Should they go without staple foods, entertainment, and (new) music until they're off public assistance?

Lex

 

[DiamondSkin]

This is a stupid question.

Anyone who thinks that anyone who is on welfare should return their lottery winnings is just bitter and envious.

The odds of winning are 1 in millions of millions.

The government already takes 50% of the winnings anyway which I'm sure covers any governmental assistance they already had.

It's just elitist bullcrap who thinks lowly of poor people and can't stand it if one gets really lucky.

 

[StlKj]

Must not be an easy life and must be a bit embarassing to carry food stamps around.

It is true, hon, that it's not an easy life.

It is not true that for all it's embarrassing to carry food stamps (and I know you already know this and are just caringly giving the benefit of the doubt).

My mom has been working with the Public Aid office most of my life, and there really are many, many people who have lived on aid all their lives, abuse the aid they receive, and teach their children that it's the way of life.

This is not really about a person who complains about his kids costing too much money while he frivolously spends aid money.

It's about a system that does so little to help people rise out of a bad situation by not educating them on how to get out, not having enough jobs for them to work at in order to get out, not paying them enough at those jobs to do much except no longer be eligible for the aid they still need despite the job--in short, it's about all of us and how we allow this to happen.

If we get mad about the person in line who frivolously buys a soda with food stamps, couldn't we also get just as mad at ourselves for buying a soda when we could be donating that money to a food bank to help people who can't afford essentials while we're rotting our teeth?

Sure, I earn my money through hard work, and I should be able to spend it on anything I want, but isn't it possible that he needs food stamps because his minimum wage job doesn't afford him enough money to provide for his whole family? Isn't it possible that this lottery ticket is his frivolous and most likely futile attempt at getting out of this situation?

 

[StlKj]

You shouldn't spend it on any luxuries if you're really having a hard time providing for your children. If the guy is really having that much of a hard time, then it would be more ideal to not spend on things that aren't luxuries and stick with the necessities.

I'm not going to tell anyone what to spend their money on, but it's irritating when people are complaining about something like this when they could easily save a little more by not spending whatever they're spending on these tickets.

The same system that didn't teach him how to budget and save also didn't teach him that he has a better chance of being hit by lightning while drowning in the tub during an earthquake than he does of winning the lottery.

 

[DiamondSkin]

I digress. Having a problem with people on welfare winning and keeping their lottery tickets has nothing to do with class so much as having a problem with the random chaos of life.

People don't like things to beyond their control. People like things to be fair.

Bad things should only happen to bad people. Good things should only happen to good people.

And if a bad thing happens to a good person, they must have done something to deserve it.

The lottery is solely dependent on one thing: chance.

And chance doesn't not discriminate. It doesn't give a fuck if you're poor, rich, happy, unhappy, evil, good or anything.

It's a roll of the dice, nothing more. And everyone is equal and deserving whether they like it or not.

Which is why people get pissed off when a rich person wins the lottery. It's not fair, they protest.

Guess what? Life isn't fair. But the lottery is. The lottery is the pinnacle of fair because anyone who buys a lottery ticket has just an equal chance of winning as the other person regardless of how they got the money.

If a murderer or pedophile wins the lottery ticket, than people would most assuredly protest. It's not fair after all...

 

[StlKj]

How much are we going to blame the system before we take responsibility for ourselves? Should people be better educated? Yes, but you get to a point in your life where someone does teach you, or you learn how things work.

If this guy is having kids and doesn't know how to budget then there are more problems with this guy than just this.

I certainly don't disagree with you, Mikami. There have been times and stories I've heard from my mom about how people abuse the system that would just drive you insane.

However, there is such a thing as learned helplessness as well, and goal setting, budgeting and seeing the bigger picture is not something that is just common sense. If people have been conditioned to think a certain way, and everything around them reinforces that they think that way, then they'll continue not seeing the forest because they're too busy knocking their heads against the same old tree.