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Sorry Creationists ... Evolutionary gap in early land animal fossil record filled

It doesn't fall under false equivilence. A false equivilence states that A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal. I merely inserted your logic into an exactly equivilent argument with the same premises.

It's exactly a false equivalence -- it takes some supposed attributes of God and stuffs in a teapot instead. It assumes God is equivalent to this teapot because the teapot has been assigned some attributes supposedly belonging to God.
 
The difference is that science is totally open to the possibility of there being more than one cause. If scientists could discover, let’s say, three causes for the universe speeding up in expansion, you bet they would. Since they can't find any cause at all, of course they're going to be looking at anything, whether that's one cause or not. Maybe there is only one cause. The fallacy is in determining that there definitely is only one cause and dismissing other causes. I don't see science dismissing any causes unless there's a valid reason to do so. Show me a respected scientist who has confidentially stated there can be only one reason for the universe expanding more rapidly.

Okay. But what reason would I have to assume that the solution is the more complex one? Especially when all the pantheons I'm aware of have members -- all or most -- which are clearly just part of the universe, not apart from it.
 
Huh? Wah? Cereal? #-o

Here:

Arggg.. Yes there is. You can't just say what is a logical fallacy or not. Non sequitur is the logical fallacy more commonly known as the false cause fallacy. The definition is that in formal logic, it is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. If you understand this correctly you can say "Well, then science itself is a logical fallacy." You are absolutely correct. Science doesn't claim absolute conclusions from no matter what premise. Science is a collection of liklihoods.

The scientific method relies on guesses, which means conjecture. Allegedly, conjecturing things is a fallacy. In that case, science relies on fallacy.
 
Here:



The scientific method relies on guesses, which means conjecture. Allegedly, conjecturing things is a fallacy. In that case, science relies on fallacy.



Guesses? Which scientific did you learn in bible camp? The scientific method couldn't work on guesses. If you are talking about the initial hypothesis, it is hardly a guess. You have successfully just used another logical fallacy. I can't think of the name right now, but I'll find it later. I haven't taken a logic course in 5 years so please forgive my void.

But please, read about the scientific method before you speak about it as you are horribly misrepresenting it.
 
It's exactly a false equivalence -- it takes some supposed attributes of God and stuffs in a teapot instead. It assumes God is equivalent to this teapot because the teapot has been assigned some attributes supposedly belonging to God.

A false equivilence means that they share some things in common thus they are the same. The teapot analagy assumes every premise.
 
Guesses? Which scientific did you learn in bible camp? The scientific method couldn't work on guesses. If you are talking about the initial hypothesis, it is hardly a guess. You have successfully just used another logical fallacy. I can't think of the name right now, but I'll find it later. I haven't taken a logic course in 5 years so please forgive my void.

But please, read about the scientific method before you speak about it as you are horribly misrepresenting it.

"Another logical fallacy".

Bullshit. You're as bad as our right-wing trolls who get banned.


As for guesses, my college texts, the texts I used for teaching high school science, plus Stephen J. Gould and Linus Pauling disagree with you. A hypothesis starts as a guess -- "Maybe this...." It doesn't get to be a hypothesis until it's framed in a way that it can be tested. If it can't be framed that way, it gets to be called a conjecture, and waits until someone can figure a way to turn it into a hypothesis.

I should ask where you learned science -- you've been wrong on so many things so far. I'd think that working in biology you'd know better than to make a lot of the claims you do.


BTW, I've never been to a Bible Camp.
 
A false equivilence means that they share some things in common thus they are the same. The teapot analagy assumes every premise.

I don't know what you mean by "assumes every premise". You treat assumptions as logical fallacies, so that would mean the teapot analogy is pointless.

Besides which, the false equivalence fallacy doesn't require that there be something in common, only that it is alleged that they have something in common. The teapot analogy alleges that the teapot and God have certain things in common, and then concludes they're the same.
 
"Another logical fallacy".

Bullshit. You're as bad as our right-wing trolls who get banned.


As for guesses, my college texts, the texts I used for teaching high school science, plus Stephen J. Gould and Linus Pauling disagree with you. A hypothesis starts as a guess -- "Maybe this...." It doesn't get to be a hypothesis until it's framed in a way that it can be tested. If it can't be framed that way, it gets to be called a conjecture, and waits until someone can figure a way to turn it into a hypothesis.

I should ask where you learned science -- you've been wrong on so many things so far. I'd think that working in biology you'd know better than to make a lot of the claims you do.


BTW, I've never been to a Bible Camp.

You said the scientific method is based on guessing. Which it's not. If anything, it's based on experiments and reproducibility. "Guessing" as you put it, isn't just some willy nilly idea thrown out. It has to be thought through, have a purpose and be a likely explanation. It also MUST be testible. If it's not testible, it doesn't work.

Me as bad as right-winged trolls? That logical fallacy falls directly under ad hominem.

I haven't been wrong about any of my claims on science. You saying I am is just diverting and recycling what I have said to you.
 
Since the existence of a god can't be tested wouldn't that make it conjecture? :)
 
I don't know what you mean by "assumes every premise". You treat assumptions as logical fallacies, so that would mean the teapot analogy is pointless.

Besides which, the false equivalence fallacy doesn't require that there be something in common, only that it is alleged that they have something in common. The teapot analogy alleges that the teapot and God have certain things in common, and then concludes they're the same.

Of course it's pointless to you. Anything that goes against your belief will automatically be considered pointless, regardless the logical soundness and evidence. That's not surprising, however, as that is what has propogated faith to stick with humans. But you must realize that your subjectivity is preventing you from advancing your beliefs. If you really want to believe in something that goes against all logic and all evidence (well, this is sort of exagurated), then be my guest. No skin off my back. If you want to continue the rest of your life denying that there are things that you can learn. Go ahead. If the only thing that you will acknowledge is that which reinforcss your own subjective reality, then fine. I will continue to live my life with the mentality of open-mindedness and that nothing is sure, but has certain degrees of probabilities based off scientific evidence. I will continue with my beliefs until there is a reason, evidence, to believe otherwise, in which case, I will not be stubborn into changing them. I will continue to live my life without making illogical conclusions from unsupported premises.

:wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:

Until you want to listen, I am once again leaving. You've resorted to much to many elimentary logical fallcie for me to waste my time here, again. I have a busy life where I have sacrificied much to get nowhere in this conversation.
 
Kulindahr, there is something in the nature of a guess which might be described as "non-factual" or "subjective."

Science is the process of "panning for knowledge" in a shovelful of guesses dredged up from the river bottom.

The non-factuality and the subjectiveness are not kept; science is the very act of discarding these things. It means the end result does not somehow encapsulate subjectivity. To the degree to which any subjectivity remains in the "final" result, science proposes an iterative process of re-refinement.

As an alternate to guessing, we might construct hypotheses with a machine designed to randomise associations between variables. Eating more cheese sandwiches will result in an improved ability to tan. Placing a bagel underneath a bridge in Prague will result in reduced sunspot activity. Everyone engaging in square dance will control inflation.

A machine can come up with any number of random associations between variables. Empirical evidence can help us winnow down from associations to correlations. And we now have the basis for experiments in biology, astronomy, and economics, to establish or reject causality.

Or is it gastronomy, geomancy, and monotony?

Either way, a guess is not required to kick the process off. I'll remark on the educated guess at this point; the term is redundant. All guesses are educated guesses; this process of idle speculation and iterative consideration of the likeliness of causality occurs before we declare ourselves to have "guessed."

That is not the same as being able to feel certain of something without having gone through the exercise of separating the deceptively convincing falsehoods from something verifiable.

I do consider the work of theologians to be within this paradigm rather than outside it. I just consider their theories to have been long surpassed by the processes described.
 
You said the scientific method is based on guessing. Which it's not. If anything, it's based on experiments and reproducibility. "Guessing" as you put it, isn't just some willy nilly idea thrown out. It has to be thought through, have a purpose and be a likely explanation. It also MUST be testible. If it's not testible, it doesn't work.

You're not much at reading -- all you're doing here is repeating what I said, except ignoring the fact that it starts with guesses. Guesses hopefully get turned into hypotheses, and off you go.

Me as bad as right-winged trolls? That logical fallacy falls directly under ad hominem.

Oh, yes, just like our right-wing trolls: you can't handle some truth, you whine about ad hominem. A scientist ought to be able to distinguish an observation from a personal attack.

I haven't been wrong about any of my claims on science. You saying I am is just diverting and recycling what I have said to you.

You've been wrong on several.

You claimed science rests on proof. False -- which I showed and some conceded.
You claimed that all science requires experimentation and reproducibility. False -- which I demonstrated, and as far as I know you ignored.

So there's no "diverting". You don't understand the scientific method except in a rote, high-school-textbook fashion. In reality, things are far more complex.
 
Of course it's pointless to you.

Here's why talking with you is exasperating: you don't read what's in front of you, you read what you want to see.

What I did was point out that it's pointless according to you. I applied your own prior statements to the teapot analogy, and revealed that by your position, it has no point.

Anything that goes against your belief will automatically be considered pointless, regardless the logical soundness and evidence. That's not surprising, however, as that is what has propogated faith to stick with humans. But you must realize that your subjectivity is preventing you from advancing your beliefs. If you really want to believe in something that goes against all logic and all evidence (well, this is sort of exagurated), then be my guest. No skin off my back. If you want to continue the rest of your life denying that there are things that you can learn. Go ahead. If the only thing that you will acknowledge is that which reinforcss your own subjective reality, then fine. I will continue to live my life with the mentality of open-mindedness and that nothing is sure, but has certain degrees of probabilities based off scientific evidence. I will continue with my beliefs until there is a reason, evidence, to believe otherwise, in which case, I will not be stubborn into changing them. I will continue to live my life without making illogical conclusions from unsupported premises.

"Without making illogical conclusions"? Most of that paragraph is illogical. You're basically making stuff up about me.

I don't think your mind is open at all. That you toss around accusations of logical fallacies and when challenged remain utterly silent tells me you aren't interested in thinking about something unless it reinforces your worldview.

I believe nothing without evidence. You believe what you want, and insist that only what you want to accept counts as evidence. And despite your earlier denial, now you return to the faith-based position that only science can bring us knowledge.


Until you want to listen, I am once again leaving. You've resorted to much to many elimentary logical fallcie for me to waste my time here, again. I have a busy life where I have sacrificied much to get nowhere in this conversation.

Yeah, throw your empty charges out claiming fallacies and not being able to back it up.

BTW, I did some research on the "single cause" fallacy. It doesn't apply to Creation, it turns out -- it applies to complex situation where all sorts of things are going on all at once. At the moment of the Big Bang, there was one thing going on: nothingness became 'somethingness'. Even the "brane" people wouldn't claim there were a whole lot of things going on. After all, it's a singularity, where the only attributes are infinite density and infinite temperature.

Besides which, conjecturing a single cause is what scientists do -- they don't look for a second contributor unless the first proves an insufficient explanation.
 
Kulindahr, there is something in the nature of a guess which might be described as "non-factual" or "subjective."

Science is the process of "panning for knowledge" in a shovelful of guesses dredged up from the river bottom.

Ooh! "Panning for knowledge" -- superb turn of phrase!

Reminds me of a session in botany where we had bumped into a big question and did a brainstorming session. Every guess was listed, no matter how inane -- that would be scooping from the bottom. Then we went back through to decide which might be testable -- that would be the rough sort. Testing would be parallel to panning out the real stuff.

The non-factuality and the subjectiveness are not kept; science is the very act of discarding these things. It means the end result does not somehow encapsulate subjectivity. To the degree to which any subjectivity remains in the "final" result, science proposes an iterative process of re-refinement.

As an alternate to guessing, we might construct hypotheses with a machine designed to randomise associations between variables. Eating more cheese sandwiches will result in an improved ability to tan. Placing a bagel underneath a bridge in Prague will result in reduced sunspot activity. Everyone engaging in square dance will control inflation.

Everyone in California having sex all at once will cause "the big one". :D

The iterative process is wonderful. In those areas where experimentation and reproducibility don't apply, it's all there is: repeated observations of phenomena, then hoping circumstances provide a chance to test them (a reason why every last glacier in a large area of Scandinavia has a large array of sensors, as the glaciologists wait for one to gallop, or surge, or whatever, so they can test their latest ideas).

Unfortunately, theology can't be iterative in that sense. We effectively have one data set, which some argue isn't even dependable.

A machine can come up with any number of random associations between variables. Empirical evidence can help us winnow down from associations to correlations. And we now have the basis for experiments in biology, astronomy, and economics, to establish or reject causality.

Or is it gastronomy, geomancy, and monotony?

Monotony, monogamy -- whatever. :p

Either way, a guess is not required to kick the process off. I'll remark on the educated guess at this point; the term is redundant. All guesses are educated guesses; this process of idle speculation and iterative consideration of the likeliness of causality occurs before we declare ourselves to have "guessed."

Those random associations you propose having a computer do are guesses. Guesses are essentially grabbing at some association we have no clue about as far as it being sound. Sure, we have a "reasonability" circuit that cuts out a lot of what the computer would generate, so what we actually put forth is somewhat limited, but they're still guesses.

BTW, I've heard a fair number of non-educated guesses. They're exceptionally common in the area of economoics and what the government can do to "fix" things. :badgrin:

That is not the same as being able to feel certain of something without having gone through the exercise of separating the deceptively convincing falsehoods from something verifiable.

I do consider the work of theologians to be within this paradigm rather than outside it. I just consider their theories to have been long surpassed by the processes described.

Surpassed how? Science provides little data for theologians, though it certainly has provided substantial amounts for making sense of certain sections of the Bible.
 
It occurs to me that my last paragraph brings us back to the topic: the Young Earth Creationists refuse to concede that God gave mankind a mind dependable for learning about the world. They insist that despite the evidence -- the very plain and abundant evidence -- their uninformed view of the Bible trumps the also very plain conclusions.

So the new fossils won't bother them in the least, except to provide an opportunity to write even more rabble-rousing articles, ignorant both of science and their own 'textbook'.
 
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