The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    PLEASE READ: To register, turn off your VPN (iPhone users- disable iCloud); you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

  • Hi Guest - Did you know?
    Hot Topics is a Safe for Work (SFW) forum.

Sorry, you're not married anymore

I think the media has mishandled this so badly... here is a little write-up done by a person with law education. It's a bit long, but it should clear things up.

Why Nobody Gets It And Everyone Is An Idiot: A Series Of Indeterminate Length


Same-Sex Marriages For Foreigners Edition

Let's start with the caveat that I don't really think you're an idiot. (Well, not all of you. Not, you, specifically, the one reading this right now. You're the one I like.) But I do think this is an issue that has gotten some terrible, uninformed media attention, and that's resulted in a lot of misplaced outrage. So here are my thoughts.

What happened?

Well, if you ask the Globe & Mail, there was a bald-faced reversal of government policy in order to attack same-sex marriage. The government declared that same-sex marriages performed in Canada were no longer valid unless the couple came from a jurisdiction where same-sex marriage was also legally valid. This meant that thousands of foreign couples who got married in Canada were arbitrarily deprived of their rights. Dan Savage, opposition politicians, and approximately one bajillion other people called Stephen Harper a homophobe, and the government back-tracked into promising to pass some kind of law about this at some point.

OK but I didn't ask the Globe & Mail, I asked you?

Something very different happened.

Fascinating. Please go on.

An American couple came to Canada in 2005 for the sole purpose of getting married. (Some people call these "tourist marriages," which is a bit patronizing but makes the point.) Recently, they made the trip back, for the sole purpose of getting a divorce. This marriage never had any practical validity for them, as they live in a jurisdiction that didn't recognize it. But presumably they took some comfort from the symbolic fact that they had gone through a marriage ceremony at one time in a place where same-sex marriage was actually valid.

A Department of Justice lawyer filed a brief in their case which pointed out two legal quirks:

-The Divorce Act requires you to be resident in Canada for a year before you can apply for a divorce. (This is actually a key element of the case that isn't getting as much attention.)

-Canadian common law arguably doesn't recognize "tourist marriages" which would be illegal in the couple's actual home. (This is what people are talking about.)

The couple's lawyer--a passionate longstanding advocate for LGBT rights who I respect a lot and also would not ever want to encounter in a dark alley--informed the media of the interesting and novel issue being raised in this case.

Subsequently, all hell broke loose.

Why do you have your back up about this?

I hate defending Stephen Harper. I FUCKING HATE DEFENDING STEPHEN HARPER. But I think a bunch of things went awry in the reporting of this case, and I think they went awry in a particularly troubling way. Here are some of the problems as i see them.

‎(1) Law is hard.

This is an argument about something lawyers call "private international law". It's the law of how various legal systems fit together. It's not set out in statutes by governments, it's developed as common law over centuries as judges try to figure out how to solve tricky problems. It's also everyone's least favourite class in law school because private international law is complicated as balls.

Private international law of marriage basically says that Canada will only recognize a "tourist" marriage (i.e. one where the couple actually has no connection to Canada) if the marriage would be valid in their home jurisdiction. That principle is called "domicile". The law evolved that way because judges historically don't like the idea of tourist marriages, and don't want to encourage them. Like it or not, that's what the law is and it's been that way for hundreds of years.

The same principle applies to straight couples, though frankly there aren't a tonne of countries restricting how straight couples can get married. But first cousin marriages are a good example. Legal in Canada (don't knock it, John A. Macdonald married his first cousin) but not in some other jurisdictions. Same principles would apply.

Here's another twist, just for fun. Each province can actually set its own rules about the process for getting married. In Nova Scotia, there is no residency requirement, only a basic waiting period. You can actually go through a legally valid wedding ceremony so long as you meet the requirements under Nova Scotia and Canadian law. But that legally valid ceremony might not result in a legally valid marriage, if you don't otherwise have a real & substantial connection to Canada. Did I mention this was everyone's least favourite class in law school?

(By the way, if you've read this far, congratulations. You now know more about the legal issues in this case than any journalist I've read or spoken to today.)

I'm not saying that the Department of Justice is definitely right here. It's a complicated legal problem, and ultimately it will come down to how a judge decides to apply the common law to this new situation. But, there's a decent chance that the DoJ lawyer is right on this one. (Don't take my word for it--Brenda Cossman, one of the best legal experts we have on LGBT family law issues, basically agrees. I posted her interview.)

(2) Argument is not policy.

‎This is not a "reversal" of government policy. First, as I noted, the law has been this way for hundreds of years, so I don't know where the reversal came from. But more importantly, this is not a government policy.

Reading the Globe & Mail article, and the bajillion subsequent comments, you'd think the PMO had issued a fiat annulling same-sex marriages for foreigners.

In reality, this is an argument put forth by the Department of Justice in a court case. It hasn't even been decided by a judge yet. The DoJ makes dozens of arguments every day in courts across the country, arguing how federal law should apply to particular situations. While they are government employees, they don't set government policy. Instead, they try to make the most correct legal argument in a case.

I have absolutely no hesitation believing that no politician ever gave direction as to how DoJ should argue this case. Theoretically they could, of course--after all, the government is the client. But realistically, most cases are handled at a non-political level. Treating this issue as if it were a policy of the Harper government is just grossly unfair.

It's not just incorrect to pretend that a DoJ argument is government policy--it's dangerous. The DOJ has to have some flexibility to present whatever legally sound arguments are relevant to the case. We don't want politicians directing every government court case based on the politics of the day. But if the media treats every DOJ argument as government policy, it won't be long before the DOJ only puts forward arguments that reflect approved government policy. And that's a bad thing.

(3) Let's not overstate the issue.

As far as I see it, this case only impacts couples who have no real life connection to Canada, who travel here solely for the symbolic act of getting married. They knew when they got married that it had no practical impact on their lives, because their lives were lived entirely outside of Canada.

For that kind of couple, the value of their Canadian marriage is entirely symbolic. This is tautologically true. If the question of marriage validity actually does have some practical meaning for the couple, then by definition this isn't a "tourist marriage". Either they have a real & substantial connection to Canada, or to some other place where their same-sex marriage is recognized, and therefore this case doesn't apply to them.

Wait, aren't you supposed to be some kind of queer activist? Are you saying this isn't important?

Actually, I think this is an important issue.

If it turns out that the common law doesn't recognize these marriages, I think we should change the law. The government can do that, and it should. It should because for almost a decade, Canada has been a beacon of hope for same-sex couples who want to marry. When we fought for same-sex marriage in Canada, we knew we were also fighting for those couples. The law on this may be hundreds of years old, but because of that, it doesn't reflect Canada's role as a leader in recognizing LGBT equality. We should change the law because, god damn it, symbolism is important.

(And if those symbolic marriages sometimes need to end in symbolic divorces, well by golly, we should allow that to happen too.)

But I don't think it's helpful to have false--dare I say, manufactured--outrage over this issue. I totally get why people are generally outraged at this government, and I am too. So I don't really fault people for jumping on this issue. But I think underneath it all you have one side in a legal case, together with media and opposition politicians, who benefit from exploiting a "Homophobia in the Harper government" meme. I think the issue is being spun into something it's not, in order to make headlines and score political points. And I don't think that helps anyone solve any real world problems.

Dude.

I know, right? Apparently I have a lot to say about this. I promise, next post will be all Harper-bashing, all the time.

link

I'm not a fan of Harper and the Conservatives... but as you can see, there is a bit of misinformation/sensationalizing going on in the media.

So everyone, calm down and take a deep breath...
 
I'm not a fan of Harper and the Conservatives... but as you can see, there is a bit of misinformation/sensationalizing going on in the media.

So everyone, calm down and take a deep breath...

Neither am I, but I can see why everyone jumped onto the bandwagon so quickly.

I think this was my favourite bit, and it bears repeating:

If it turns out that the common law doesn't recognize these marriages, I think we should change the law. The government can do that, and it should. It should because for almost a decade, Canada has been a beacon of hope for same-sex couples who want to marry. When we fought for same-sex marriage in Canada, we knew we were also fighting for those couples. The law on this may be hundreds of years old, but because of that, it doesn't reflect Canada's role as a leader in recognizing LGBT equality. We should change the law because, god damn it, symbolism is important.

(And if those symbolic marriages sometimes need to end in symbolic divorces, well by golly, we should allow that to happen too.)
 
I find it interesting to see people take a very apatheic approach to the story. Same sex marriages were quite possibly in jeopardy, at the very least being questioned by some Toronto lawyer. Frankly, I believe we should do anything in our collective power to stop anyone from questioning the equal rights of the GLBT community.

Another possible result of this was Tory media sampling. Media sampling is when a government or party gages the sentiment of the populace by how they react (or fail to react) to thet news' coverage of a given topic. Based on their findings a government will decide what they can get away with.

Now, the Tories are going to rewrite legislation on same sex marriage; supposedly to make it easier for international couples to divorce in Canada should their same sex marriage fail. To be quite honest, I'm nervous having Harper and his goons go anywhere near marriage legislation.

I think it's fantastic that people "overreacted" and "freaked out" because it sent a clear message to the PMO and the Justice Department. Canadians will not let the majority government steamroll over GLBT rights. The international audience made a mockery of Canada at the mere implication that Harper would play with same sex marriage. Now Harper knows not to screw with a good thing.

Imagine what could be happening when the Tories rewrite legislation had nobody sat up when the rumor of same sex marriage was in jeopardy. If the left stops caring, you play to the right.
 
Oh don't think I didn't privately lose my shit and call my lawyer.

5 minutes later, I had the info I needed before I took to Twitter. While I agree that it's good that the message was sent that dissolving gay unions would start a revolution, I think it also had the danger of being a "chicken little" thing.

I was able to calmly respond to Christians who were doing their dance of nazi glee by saying "nope... There is nothing you can do, I'm married forever."
 
I'm very glad to gear it Jasun! Come back to Canada sometime, buddy (maybe after Harper leaves).

Loki, does it have to impact your life to get you upset? I freak out everytime I hear about gay people facing problems in any part of the world. I hate to think about any gay person not having equal rights, protections under the law, etc.
 
if I live in a state/country where same sex marriage isn't recognized (say, California or Saudi Arabia), how does having a marriage certificate in Canada impact my life?

I'm assuming it would confer no legal benefits in the country where I live?

We did it so when the time comes for Canada pensions, there is no doubt that we are a couple and will be treated as such.

I also want a record of how long we've been together when it becomes legal here.

And besides... Drives the phobes NUTS when I introduce myself as his husband.
 
Same sex marriage was ultimately for Canadians and I didn't think for a minute my Canadian marriage was ever in jeopardy. I also know that it is only really valid in Canada. When I cross the border to the US I know I'm a single man. On the title to my US property we're both listed as single men. In Canada we're married and that is all that matters to me. It isn't up to us to fight other country's battles on this issue since it isn't our business. For those who set their hair on fire for nothing...do some research before hitting the panic button next time
 
Back
Top