Supreme Court reverses ruling on White Firefighters Case

[hotatlboi]

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2936044120090629

I can't remember the last time I agreed with all the conservative justices but this would have to be one of those times.

No one should get a free pass because of their race.

This won't look good for Sotomayor, but I do not think it is fair at all to judge her LONG record on just this one case.

 

[Seasoned]

The thing is no one got a free pass. The test was thrown out. It is difficult to write a test and not all tests are valid. It was also a 5-4 decision, which means the court could, at some point, reverse itself. It wasn't as if her decision was slammed 9-0.

 

[hotatlboi]

The thing is no one got a free pass.

Yeah they did, not a free pass to promotion but a free pass for their initial failing scores. It was a simple fact that no African Americans past the test. Maybe they didn't study enough. Maybe they simply didn't have the required knowledge. Maybe they didn't care enough. I don't know but it was something. There was no racial disadvantage for these folks. They were given the same opportunity as the whites and hispanics who passed.

Instead of not being promoted based on their non-passing scores, they were going to be given another chance just because of their race.

We have to stop the attitude that just because someone didn't achieve an equal result to someone else that it must be because of their race. There are African Americans who excel at the highest levels of business and government, and there are white folks who live in trailer parks doing drugs. I'm not saying racism is completely gone, it's not. But let's not inject it into EVERY situation when the simpler explanation is simply not racial at all.

It is difficult to write a test and not all tests are valid.

But the city didn't throw out the test because it felt the test was genuinely unfair to people of different races. It simply did because it feared a lawsuit from the black firefighters. Basically it felt these people were going to play the "you should give me a free pass because of my race" card. That's an absurd thing to permit to be used as an intimidation tactic, and I'm glad the Court ruled as it did here.

 

[Lostlover]

The thing is no one got a free pass. The test was thrown out. It is difficult to write a test and not all tests are valid. It was also a 5-4 decision, which means the court could, at some point, reverse itself. It wasn't as if her decision was slammed 9-0.

That's the whole premise of Sotomayor's rejection. Hard to argue for discrimination during promotion when no one was promoted.

 

[hotatlboi]

That's the whole premise of Sotomayor's rejection. Hard to argue for discrimination during promotion when no one was promoted.

It's not hard at all.

The white firefighters were denied promotion because of their race. i.e. if some of them had been black, they would have been promoted. If that is not racial discrimination I'm not sure what is.

The only way you can say it is not is if you hold the position that white people can never be discriminated against because of their race. But that's just absurd.

 

[crzyrazn]

Yeah they did, not a free pass to promotion but a free pass for their initial failing scores. It was a simple fact that no African Americans past the test. Maybe they didn't study enough. Maybe they simply didn't have the required knowledge. Maybe they didn't care enough. I don't know but it was something. There was no racial disadvantage for these folks. They were given the same opportunity as the whites and hispanics who passed.

Instead of not being promoted based on their non-passing scores, they were going to be given another chance just because of their race.

We have to stop the attitude that just because someone didn't achieve an equal result to someone else that it must be because of their race. There are African Americans who excel at the highest levels of business and government, and there are white folks who live in trailer parks doing drugs. I'm not saying racism is completely gone, it's not. But let's not inject it into EVERY situation when the simpler explanation is simply not racial at all.


But the city didn't throw out the test because it felt the test was genuinely unfair to people of different races. It simply did because it feared a lawsuit from the black firefighters. Basically it felt these people were going to play the "you should give me a free pass because of my race" card. That's an absurd thing to permit to be used as an intimidation tactic, and I'm glad the Court ruled as it did here.

I agree whole-heartedly with you, and with the ruling as well, here.

 

[iman]

You can't remedy hundreds of years of oppression and discrimination by suddenly deciding that everyone will now be held to a standard that only whites were permitted to prepare for or attain for hundreds of years?

Denying African Americans access to education and equal opportunity, while extending all of societies benefits to another group and then expecting African Americans to meet the same standards is a form of discrimination and racism in itself.

Four Justices dissented and the three Judge panel on which Sotomayor sat did not agree. This is just another indication that the conservative on this court want to roll back the progress that has been made in many areas in the past 50 years.

 

[MisterMajestic]

It's not hard at all.

The white firefighters were denied promotion because of their race. i.e. if some of them had been black, they would have been promoted. If that is not racial discrimination I'm not sure what is.

The only way you can say it is not is if you hold the position that white people can never be discriminated against because of their race. But that's just absurd.

It was reported after the ruling that there were also 2 hispanic Fire Fighters that were also DENIED promotion...Know your FACTS...This will NOT look bad for Sotomayor because a couple of the Conservative Justices had cases REVERSED and so have a couple of Liberal Justices...This is NOTHING NEW people...Do your research....

SotoMayor will be seated make no mistake about that...

 

[hotatlboi]

It was reported after the ruling that there were also 2 hispanic Fire Fighters that were also DENIED promotion...Know your FACTS

Um, I said the "whites and hispanics" who passed the test elsewhere in my post. I know there were hispanics too. And yes, they too were denied promotion because of their race.

This will NOT look bad for Sotomayor

Yes it will, but like I said she will not be judged just on this.

SotoMayor will be seated make no mistake about that...

Never said she wouldn't, and I agree.

 

[hotatlboi]

You can't remedy hundreds of years of oppression and discrimination by suddenly deciding that everyone will now be held to a standard that only whites were permitted to prepare for or attain for hundreds of years?

Denying African Americans access to education and equal opportunity, while extending all of societies benefits to another group and then expecting African Americans to meet the same standards is a form of discrimination and racism in itself.

How is requiring a lesser standard based on race going to heal the race wars in this country?

It isn't. It's going to further inflame them.

How are blacks denied access to education? That makes no sense to me. I went to a good (mostly white) university. Two of my roommates were black and were smart people who applied themselves. Black people who have the motivation to do well have plenty of opportunities for education today.

I realize that the situation is still very difficult in poor neighborhoods, that school standards need to be improved etc. But that's another issue that should be addressed using it's own solution. Making workplace advancement easier for black people is not the answer.

 

[iman]

It is not a matter of holding blacks to a "lesser" standard, but rather a different standard. We have been struggling with the question od promotion standards since the 60's and we know that African Americans do not do well in the traditional tests and other standards of promotion have been adopted by cities, states, the Federal Government and private corporations.

We do not use SAT's as the sole determinate for College entrance any longer and as a result our colleges are well integrated.

Obviously the educational system is not doing what it should, unless you ascribe the poor results among African Americans to a natural inferiority. Whatever deficits you may see in the African American Community, the only thing we know for sure is that racism is the primary cause for those deficits.

The US has taken extraordinary, even heroic steps to correct the results of racism and to leave future generations with a non racist world. Affirmative Action has been the prime mover in the integration of the US and the result has been a rapid integration of many aspects of society. Actually, the integration of Police and Fire Departments was dealt with in the 70's and 80's (except perhaps in NYC).

I think the city had every right to throw out the test if the results would have created a minority imbalance and so did most Judges that looked at the case. Unfortunately we have five right wing Judges on the court that have an absurd rigid view of the Constitution, particulary when it comes to individual rights and racial matters.

 

[Lostlover]

It's not hard at all.

The white firefighters were denied promotion because of their race. i.e. if some of them had been black, they would have been promoted. If that is not racial discrimination I'm not sure what is.

The only way you can say it is not is if you hold the position that white people can never be discriminated against because of their race. But that's just absurd.

Do you have a crystal ball?

Again, no one was promoted. How do you argue discrimination when no one was promoted?

I've never said that bolded part. You're starting to sound paranoid.

 

[Sondrith]

Do you have a crystal ball?

Again, no one was promoted. How do you argue discrimination when no one was promoted?

I've never said that bolded part. You're starting to sound paranoid.

The point of the civil service exam was to fill open positions. The fact is that they were passed over for promotion based on the color of their skin. In this case, that not enough of those eligable for promotion were black makes this case about discrimination.

 

[opinterph]

For anyone interested ... Here's a link to today's ruling from the Supreme Court:

RICCI ET AL. v. DESTEFANO ET AL.​

 

[chuck10x]

Do you have a crystal ball?

Again, no one was promoted. How do you argue discrimination when no one was promoted?

I've never said that bolded part. You're starting to sound paranoid.

The test was thrown out rather than promote the white Firefighters.
All the firemen were eligible to take the test.
All of them were capable to study for the test.
Would you want a fireman Promoted over more qualified candidates based solely on color? That is Prejudice.
As someone who has taken Civil Service tests, I can tell you they are slanted to favor minorities.
When a promotion comes up, The longest serving employee gets the job, NOT the most qualified.

 

[landers]

I think the city had every right to throw out the test if the results would have created a minority imbalance and so did most Judges that looked at the case. Unfortunately we have five right wing Judges on the court that have an absurd rigid view of the Constitution, particulary when it comes to individual rights and racial matters.

Personally I think affirmative action is a joke. Race, age, sex or sexual orientation should not be considerations in hiring. I don't see the problem with a minority imbalance in a work place if it means that the most qualified people are hired.

If you audition for an orchestra it's usually done behind a screen so that the panel can judge you only on the quality of your playing and not on the colour of your skin, your age or anything else but the quality of your playing.

And it is totally discriminatory to tell one group of people that even though you passed a promotion test you won't be considered for promotion because another group of people didn't pass the same test.

 

[crzyrazn]

It is not a matter of holding blacks to a "lesser" standard, but rather a different standard. We have been struggling with the question od promotion standards since the 60's and we know that African Americans do not do well in the traditional tests and other standards of promotion have been adopted by cities, states, the Federal Government and private corporations.

We do not use SAT's as the sole determinate for College entrance any longer and as a result our colleges are well integrated.

Obviously the educational system is not doing what it should, unless you ascribe the poor results among African Americans to a natural inferiority. Whatever deficits you may see in the African American Community, the only thing we know for sure is that racism is the primary cause for those deficits.

The US has taken extraordinary, even heroic steps to correct the results of racism and to leave future generations with a non racist world. Affirmative Action has been the prime mover in the integration of the US and the result has been a rapid integration of many aspects of society. Actually, the integration of Police and Fire Departments was dealt with in the 70's and 80's (except perhaps in NYC).

I think the city had every right to throw out the test if the results would have created a minority imbalance and so did most Judges that looked at the case. Unfortunately we have five right wing Judges on the court that have an absurd rigid view of the Constitution, particulary when it comes to individual rights and racial matters.

What "different standard" are you referring to? As I understand, the test was not disproportionate in any way, even "ensuring broad racial participation in the design of the test and its adminstration." It seems you are trying to imply they administered different tests to the groups. If African-Americans can not excel on a test, one in which they have equal training and preparation for, as the other men had, than this is not a question of fair promotion standards, but one of individual incompetency that evidences no grounds of racial inequality. The irony that all the black men failed is just that in my opinion, and is not evidence of a "different standard" being applied. And, please, explain what you mean by "traditional tests" you claim African-Americans do not do well on. This was a standard test, written and oral, that is standard across education to job assessments to determine qualifications. Because African-Americans can not pass means standards that are applied everywhere should be changed for their sake? Now, that's unfair.

The SAT argument is comparably groundless. Many students white, black, latino, asian, etc. fail to get perfect scores, and, alternatively do get perfect scores. Does such result across a diversified spectrum indicate discrimination? I think not, merely exercise of potential, which varies.

I don't even want to broach the subject of racism in our education system, as I grew up and was educated in public schools all my life along side proportionate populations of every race. I observed there was no special treatment, so that fails to qualify with me. I got a sound education in the same classrooms as the African-Americans I shared it with. There wasn't a significant disproportion of African-Americans failing to learn to white kids learning. We all had the same opportunity. It was a question of how ardently the individual applied oneself.

Affirmative action was a great initiative to eradicate discrimination, but when it becomes a discriminating practice itself, after all this time and the progress we have made in racial equality so that the argument is obsolete after the strides, and even the election of black president, Harvard educated mind you, it becomes a tool for reverse discrimination, recreating the wrongs it took so long for us to heal and overcome.

The ruling was fair, and in my mind the action needed to signify that the whole argument of racial discrimination is overblown and outdated to the detriment of the society Affirmative Action was created to protect.

 

[iman]

If this were an ideal world we could suddenly decide to make everything fair and equal and there would be no problem. However, African Americans have3e been denied the benefits of this society for hundreds of years and whites have reaped the rewards of denying blacks social benefits. That situation of hundreds of years of discrimination cannot be corrected by simply being "fair". To be fair, the society has to make allowances and accept some unequal treatment of the privileged group if we are to solve the problem for the next generation.

Of course the SAT argument is pertinent. Blacks have notoriously done poorly and Asians and Jews have done well and the campus of any Ivy League school reflects that fact. We do not know why blacks have not done well in the SAT's; family background and values, educational opportunities or whatever, the one thing we know for sure, is that hundreds of years oppression and discrimination have taken a dreadful toll and must be considered when we decide to be "fair", that is, if we really want to solve the problem.

 

[hotatlboi]

If this were an ideal world we could suddenly decide to make everything fair and equal and there would be no problem. However, African Americans have3e been denied the benefits of this society for hundreds of years and whites have reaped the rewards of denying blacks social benefits. That situation of hundreds of years of discrimination cannot be corrected by simply being "fair". To be fair, the society has to make allowances and accept some unequal treatment of the privileged group if we are to solve the problem for the next generation.

If you were arguing this in the 1960s you might be taken seriously. However I believe that all these firefighters have lived their entire lives under a system that was setup to give them an equal chance, and not one in which they were held back. As such, I don't really see this argument as any more valid today than the ones that still say we need to pay reparations for slavery.

The sins of our past are behind us, and THESE people were afforded equal chance. What they did with it was up to them.

 

[crzyrazn]

If this were an ideal world we could suddenly decide to make everything fair and equal and there would be no problem. However, African Americans have3e been denied the benefits of this society for hundreds of years and whites have reaped the rewards of denying blacks social benefits. That situation of hundreds of years of discrimination cannot be corrected by simply being "fair". To be fair, the society has to make allowances and accept some unequal treatment of the privileged group if we are to solve the problem for the next generation.

Of course the SAT argument is pertinent. Blacks have notoriously done poorly and Asians and Jews have done well and the campus of any Ivy League school reflects that fact. We do not know why blacks have not done well in the SAT's; family background and values, educational opportunities or whatever, the one thing we know for sure, is that hundreds of years oppression and discrimination have taken a dreadful toll and must be considered when we decide to be "fair", that is, if we really want to solve the problem.

Racial inequality died its final death over half a century ago, but people still feel the need to kick its corpse to agitate a response for causes outdated and left behind, if we will let the past be just that - the past. Well, I'm sorry, but the past has come to the present to die, and its haunting is fast becoming wearisome as an excuse for failure to take responsibility. Our society has done more than be "fair," it has exerted itself in being even accommodating. America has changed. Whatever wrongs were committed they have been rectified, and whatever racism still plagues humanity, even America, it stems from the sin of not letting the ugly past die its death. That is the answer in solving "the problem" for the next generation, but if we allow this platitudinous excuse to continue to be accepted as legitimate, than we will still be plagued with this issue one-hundred years from now, which by than may become infected as to be cankerous and reopen the humiliation of the annals of that history. Given the distance and the progress we have made, making concessions to African-Americans who have just as much opportunity as whites, Asians, Latinos, Mexicans, Persians, Arabs, Jews, and every other race that calls America home. Some even coming to this country from conditions unimaginable, having to bridge cultural, language, and social divides, and yet they succeed without excuses. Asians and Jews do well because they foster the importance of succeeding to an extreme degree, and African-Americans can have the same initiative, and I see those who do take the initiative and rise to prominence and wealth. Its not a race issue anymore, its become an issue of finally taking responsibility, and stop excusing yourself because a horrible past many African-Americans can't even identify with today continue to grip, demanding equality, all the time failing to see they have the opportunity and benefits we all share in this world today to the extreme they would fail to see that are the one being unfair now, and anyone who would use that crutch.