Swiss people ban building of new minarets

[SoulSearcher]

Yes, if you feel the hatred was inspired by a Christian sentiment, like the age old "The Jews killed Christ", you have every right.
Other Christians might not have been abusing you, but they are responsible in that they upheld these beliefs.

I don't think other Christians are responsible for what the two guys did, I can't imagine how I can blame Christians who may be from New Zealand, Kiribati or Angola for what these two American Christians did. But its just me.

Muslims are followers of Islam. The tenets of Islam are known.

I wasn't talking about the tenets of Islam, I was questioning your assertion that "utter contempt of Muslims for European culture", that is a blanket statement, and I don't know how you could imagine that that is a tenet of Islam. People can't talk about "the Muslims" or "the Christians", because no such thing exists, there is no monolith.

I think you can't accept an idea that is very threatening to you, and that's why you are convinced that I must be wrong about this.

Blanket statements against an entire group of a billion people covering an least a third of the globe is not threatening to me, I'm Jewish, not too long ago, Christian Europeans did exactly that to us, blanket statements about "the Jews", I know better not to do that. But sadly, some people always find new "other".

Try coming to UCLA and offer your blanket statements and see how seriously intellectuals and intelligent students take you.

Not in Western Europe (and certainly not Switzerland), there are not.
Here they are all immigrants, most of whom came after WW2 and barely any from before that.

Get your facts straight first.

I never said Western Europe, I said Europe, and its vast. And yes, in Europe, since you were talking about European culture, there are millions of native Muslims.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

I never said Western Europe, I said Europe, and its vast. And yes, in Europe, since you were talking about European culture, there are millions of native Muslims.

Just a small example of what happens there because of them.

North Caucasus group in Russia train bomb web claim

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

People can't talk about "the Muslims" or "the Christians", because no such thing exists, there is no monolith.

They're called "world religions" for a reason.

Try coming to UCLA and offer your blanket statements and see how seriously intellectuals and intelligent students take you.

You're so afraid of this idea you need to appeal to the concept of someone else's authority, just so you feel that you can be certain you're right and not me.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Just a small example of what happens there because of them.

North Caucasus group in Russia train bomb web claim

I give up. Do you not understand English? Do you know the difference between Christian Crusaders and Christianity? Do you know the difference between Islamist groups and Islam and Muslims? You yet again said "them", as if it is a monolith and all encompassing. I think anyone who can read my exchanges with you can see where you are coming from, and I certainly can't reason with you, that'll be like a Jew trying to reason with a Neo-Nazi who's every cell tells him ill of "the Jews". Keep up. You're joining others who speak of "the gays", and "the blacks", and every other imaginable hated group, it probably makes things simple for your simple minds.

 

[SoulSearcher]

They're called "world religions" for a reason.

And what would that reason be? Enlighten me! And how is it relevant to my idea that one cannot talk about a very large population, as if its a monolithic entity, a one?

You're so afraid of this idea you need to appeal to the concept of someone else's authority, just so you feel that you can be certain you're right and not me.

Oh no, you don't have to guess! I'll tell you exactly what I mean, I meant for you to expand your mode of thinking, and delve away from what is familiar, the labeling, and offering blankets statements of attributes to entire groups, that really are not a group, because they span the globe. You have an unnatural and obsessive hatred for Muslims, and as I mentioned above, for reasons for which you could hate Christians too, but you don't. I will let you be. You don't know better. Just read my exchanges with you above, the kinds of statements you make, how you reason with me, and maybe something will come to you.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

I give up. Do you not understand English? Do you know the difference between Christian Crusaders and Christianity? Do you know the difference between Islamist groups and Islam and Muslims? You yet again said "them", as if it is a monolith and all encompassing. I think anyone who can read my exchanges with you can see where you are coming from, and I certainly can't reason with you, that'll be like a Jew trying to reason with a Neo-Nazi who's every cell tells him ill of "the Jews". Keep up. You're joining others who speak of "the gays", and "the blacks", and every other imaginable hated group, it probably makes things simple for your simple minds.

I understand what you're trying to say perfectly well. I just don't agree with you.
You can't accept this, but what if I were right?

Do you know what happens to Jews these days in Western European cities?

 

[SoulSearcher]

I understand what you're trying to say perfectly well. I just don't agree with you.
You can't accept this, but what if I were right?

Do you know what happens to Jews these days in Western European cities?

Yes, some young European Muslims take out their frustration on the Israeli occupation onto innocent Jews who have nothing to do with Israeli policies. But I'm not about to attribute that to a billion people around the world, just like I will not attribute neo-Nazi attacks on Jews to all whites or all Christians around the world. Here in the US, the Christmas before last, a bunch of white guys beat up a Jew at a train station, and the only guy who stood up for him was Bangladeshi Muslim.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDd-RyDmvZo[/ame]

I remain in disagreement with you, I do not believe in characterising entire groups of people in one stroke, that is a dangerous way to be, and history teaches us that it only makes it easy to dehumanise and then subjugate, massacre, or justify otherwise despicable imperialist policies.

 

[moniker]

And your point is? Some gays in some countries hold neo-Nazi views. Does that mean gays in Tahiti should be discriminated against? Yeah, that'll be really logical. How does your post justify the discriminatory Swiss vote towards Swiss Muslims?

Ah, the point. Well, here goes: if a majority of Islamic college professors prefer to believe a silly story regarding creation rather than an accepted scientific account then it just indicates the general lack of intelligence and culture in the society as a whole. Such ignorance has definite detrimental ramifications when wedded to a literally deadly and nihilistic religious ideology. One thing more: where were all the “integrated” Swiss Muslims when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini the “spiritual” leader of Iran put out a contract on the life of Salman Rushdie? Where were all the protests? Imagine the pope ordering a hit on a novelist? The Catholic world would have been rocked. The choice of what trumps what in the pseudo-liberal mind astounds and amazes.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Ah, the point. Well, here goes: if a majority of Islamic college professors prefer to believe a silly story regarding creation rather than an accepted scientific account then it just indicates the general lack of intelligence and culture in the society as a whole. Such ignorance has definite detrimental ramifications when wedded to a literally deadly and nihilistic religious ideology. One thing more: where were all the “integrated” Swiss Muslims when Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini the “spiritual” leader of Iran put out a contract on the life of Salman Rushdie? Where were all the protests? Imagine the pope ordering a hit on a novelist? The Catholic world would have been rocked. The choice of what trumps what in the pseudo-liberal mind astounds and amazes.

I don't believe that most professors across universities in countries as diverse as Morocco, Indonesia, India, Uzbekistan, Albania and Chad believe that evolution is invalid.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a papacy or central authority in Islam, every imam from any mosque can issue an edict, and no authority in Islam is universal, Islam is not an organised religion with hierarchies, etc, there are schools of thought, but they function nothing like our churches. Khomeini led a majority Shia state, and over 90% of European Muslims are Sunni, a lot of happenings in Shia world is irrelevant to Sunnis. On another note, surveys after surveys show that in the US, the more church going you are, the more likely you are to support war and death penalty. Should that say anything about Christianity and Christians in general, I think not!

 

[SuperQueer]

I say if they own the land and they pay to erect it let them do it. minaret. minaret minaret. The Swiss need to be reminded about who and what is around them.

 

[jktoooo]

Many of the Western European citizens, however, welcome the ban, and praise Swiss democracy for acknowledging the misgivings its people have against the ever encroaching hordes of Islam. ......


So JUBbers, how do you feel about this development? Were the Swiss well within their rights, or was this an unallowable infringement on Swiss freedom of religion?
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Attachments: poster, existing Swiss mosque with minaret

I think what they did was necessary. I have close family friends in Switzerland (and denmark) and Islam and Muslims are a constant societal problem. and not a problem of the swiss peoples' choosing, rather a problem within Islamic societies and teachings that tell Muslims to not integrate into kuffir (disbelievers) societies and make whatever efforts they can to turn non-islamic lands into islamic ruled societies.

A showing such as this shows islamists that "No, we are not going to put up with your ridiculous religous crap!" All European countries need to take similar stances to this. Islam is a serious cancer in the societies it invades.

 

[irydion]

Someday Swiss will be very ashamed of that. I am against the ban, obviously. It's completely unnecessary form of a mild persecution. Now I know there are problems with muslim immigrants. And that there are 1000x more problems with religious freedom in muslim states than in Switzerland. But this ban is idiotic. It does not help anything, it only makes atheists/christians/jews feel as the lords, and pushes muslims away.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Someday Swiss will be very ashamed of that. I am against the ban, obviously. It's completely unnecessary form of a mild persecution. Now I know there are problems with muslim immigrants. And that there are 1000x more problems with religious freedom in muslim states than in Switzerland. But this ban is idiotic. It does not help anything, it only makes atheists/christians/jews feel as the lords, and pushes muslims away.

Well someone somewhere thought that minarets held the secret to religious fundamentalism and banning them will reign in Islamist fundamentalism. I say we should put everything that threatens society as we know it should be put to vote...

 

[TX-Beau]

One might also ask why Muslims in general should believe the west even cares about religious freedom in the first place. If the west is going to behave like hypocrites, what motivation is there for anyone else to take our philosophies seriously?

Plus the smug, knee jerk defenders of the tiny minded petit bourgeoisie in the west really love to forget or ignore, WHY the Muslims are so pissed off, I mean it's not as though crusades and Inquisition, invasion, colonial exploitations ever occurred anywhere. Oh no, the West doesn't have to UNDERSTAND the problems, we're allowed to feel smug and superior (and isn't that fun!!), nor do we expect ourselves to figure out why there are plenty of Islamic radicals, no, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

Plus it's lots more self-gratifying (read mentally masturbatory) to play emperor strutting around in his new clothes, peckker naked to the world, than it is to try and do something as stunningly radical as understanding the problems and their context before tossing out the bigotry and ignorance.

 

[SoulSearcher]

One might also ask why Muslims in general should believe the west even cares about religious freedom in the first place. If the west is going to behave like hypocrites, what motivation is there for anyone else to take our philosophies seriously?

Plus the smug, knee jerk defenders of the tiny minded petit bourgeoisie in the west really love to forget or ignore, WHY the Muslims are so pissed off, I mean it's not as though crusades and Inquisition, invasion, colonial exploitations ever occurred anywhere. Oh no, the West doesn't have to UNDERSTAND the problems, we're allowed to feel smug and superior (and isn't that fun!!), nor do we expect ourselves to figure out why there are plenty of Islamic radicals, no, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

Plus it's lots more self-gratifying (read mentally masturbatory) to play emperor strutting around in his new clothes, peckker naked to the world, than it is to try and do something as stunningly radical as understanding the problems and their context before tossing out the bigotry and ignorance.

Maybe this could provide a start:

History of US military interventions around the world:

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

 

[jktoooo]

One might also ask why Muslims in general should believe the west even cares about religious freedom in the first place.

oh Tx-Beau....long time....
anyhoo, Muslims could care less whether we believe in "religious freedom" or not. Why? Because they will force (often times with violence) their religion upon societies whether any society believes in religious of freedom or not. in fact if a society believes in freedom of religion it is only more cake to be had in the eyes of islamists.

If the west is going to behave like hypocrites, what motivation is there for anyone else to take our philosophies seriously?

like i said, they could care less the philosophies of a society.....only Islamic philosophies should rule, and in the eyes of islamists it's only a matter of time for that to happen once they become rooted in any society.

Plus the smug, knee jerk defenders of the tiny minded petit bourgeoisie in the west really love to forget or ignore, WHY the Muslims are so pissed off, I mean it's not as though crusades and Inquisition, invasion, colonial exploitations ever occurred anywhere.

oh geez, it's interesting you have to dig deeeeeeeeeeep into the past to find a religiously motivated violence from christians (and the crusades were a DIRECT result of aggressive islamic expansion in the first place) and the "colonial exploitations" you mention were not religoiusly motivated.

Oh no, the West doesn't have to UNDERSTAND the problems, we're allowed to feel smug and superior (and isn't that fun!!),

I don't feel smug....do you feel smug? judging by your tone of your response is riddled with smuggness.

nor do we expect ourselves to figure out why there are plenty of Islamic radicals, no, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

the "radicals" need no other explanation for what they do, other than the need for an excuse to blame something else. and these "radicals" are not "radicals", they are FUNDAMENTALISTS.....who follow islamic teachings to a "T" and practice, again to a "T", the Islam of their "prophet" muhamMAD.

Plus it's lots more self-gratifying (read mentally masturbatory) to play emperor strutting around in his new clothes, peckker naked to the world, than it is to try and do something as stunningly radical as understanding the problems and their context before tossing out the bigotry and ignorance.

ummm......your smuggness oozes in this last paragraph, for it is YOU who needs to "Understand" the problems (ie. understand TRUE islamic teachings) and their "contexts" (and not the "liberal" "Peaceful" Islam version) before tossing out bigotry and ignorance (meaning blaming the west for Islamic woes).

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh please. No knowledge spewing no argument. Just a lot of pointless verbiage.

 

[SoulSearcher]

oh geez, it's interesting you have to dig deeeeeeeeeeep into the past to find a religiously motivated violence from christians (and the crusades were a DIRECT result of aggressive islamic expansion in the first place) and the "colonial exploitations" you mention were not religoiusly motivated.

We don't need to dig deep, all of America's recent wars have had Christian sanctioning, surveys after surveys show that the more church going you are in America, the more likely you to support war and death penalty. And if the crusades were about Islamic expansionism, then how come the Crusaders killed every Eastern Orthodox indigenous Christians they could find, along with Jews?

And there was absolutely a religious Christian aspect to colonialism, remember the 3 Gs, God, Glory, and Gold, you must not have read much about colonialism, and the role all the churches played in it. The US military itself is a tool for Christians in the US, it is dominated mostly by children of very religious folks. All prominent evangelicals have declared that soldiers have been called upon by God, and that they should use this opportunity to proselytise. Similar to the dehumanisation of the Vietnamese during the other war, it is very common for American soldiers to refer to all Iraqis with derogatory names and use excessive force. I would even further assert that a lot of soldiers want to enjoy what their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed while lynching black people a few decades ago, but this time, it is by shooting at Arabs.

America runs on what the people don't know...
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOd19oc_eaU[/ame]

 

[jktoooo]

We don't need to dig deep, all of America's recent wars have had Christian sanctioning, surveys after surveys show that the more church going you are in America, the more likely you to support war and death penalty. And if the crusades were about Islamic expansionism, then how come the Crusaders killed every Eastern Orthodox indigenous Christians they could find, along with Jews?

And there was absolutely a religious Christian aspect to colonialism, remember the 3 Gs, God, Glory, and Gold, you must not have read much about colonialism, and the role all the churches played in it. The US military itself is a tool for Christians in the US, it is dominated mostly by children of very religious folks. All prominent evangelicals have declared that soldiers have been called upon by God, and that they should use this opportunity to proselytise. Similar to the dehumanisation of the Vietnamese during the other war, it is very common for American soldiers to refer to all Iraqis with derogatory names and use excessive force. I would even further assert that a lot of soldiers want to enjoy what their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed while lynching black people a few decades ago, but this time, it is by shooting at Arabs.

America runs on what the people don't know...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOd19oc_eaU

1-) I won't defend what happened in Iraq, the war in general. the Iraq war was a msitake, and I believe so not for the same reasons you do (as you believe christians and the USA are evil). One thing is for sure......YOU don't understand the Islamic mindset, and most likely the teachings from Islam that infects the Muslim mind.

2-) let me make my point a little more clear:
a - are there evil people that use christianity for an evil purpose? Yes.
b - is christianity the sole purpose for these people being evil? No.

Why do I believe "No" to "2-b"? Because if you understand the teachings directly from Jesus Christ you will see Jesus Christ does NOT teach violence as a way to solve issues. he just doesn't. if you see his life, he was not a violent man.

therefore, those that follow how he was will be as he was, non-violent. that said, what does that say of those who conduct themselves violently, not like their jesus?

 

[jktoooo]

Oh please. No knowledge spewing no argument. Just a lot of pointless verbiage.

just what i suspected......