Thank you America...Thank you...

[smelter]

That was not a source, that was deliberate misdirection.
Sit there and argue or not, you cannot make your case because there is none to be made - at least not as you so disingenuously state it.

Here is a source that seems to be irrefutable. Since the information was based on 2005, I don't think it much of a leap to project to 50,000 uninsured in 2007.

The National Coalition
on Health Care
1200 G Street, NW,
Suite 750
Washington, DC 20005

National Health Care Spending
-
In 2005, health care spending in the United States reached $2 trillion, and was projected to reach $2.9 trillion in 2009. Health care spending is projected to reach $4 trillion by 2015.

Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense. In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent in the next decade.

Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.

Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Employer and Employee Health Insurance Costs
Premiums for employer-based health insurance rose by 7.7 percent in 2006. Small employers saw their premiums, on average, increase 8.8 percent. Firms with less than 24 workers, experienced an increase of 10.5 percent.

The annual premium that a health insurer charges an employer for a health plan covering a family of four averaged $11,500 in 2006. Workers contributed nearly $3,000, or 10 percent more than they did in 2005. The annual premiums for family coverage significantly eclipsed the gross earnings for a full-time, minimum-wage worker ($10,712).

Workers are now paying $1,094 more in premiums annually for family coverage than they did in 2000.

Since 2000, employment-based health insurance premiums have increased 87 percent, compared to cumulative inflation of 18 percent and cumulative wage growth of 20 percent during the same period.

Health insurance expenses are the fastest growing cost component for employers. Unless something changes dramatically, health insurance costs will overtake profits by 2008.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers' earnings since 2000.

The average employee contribution to company-provided health insurance has increased more than 143 percent since 2000. Average out-of-pocket costs for deductibles, co-payments for medications, and co-insurance for physician and hospital visits rose 115 percent during the same period.

The percentage of Americans under age 65 whose family-level, out-of-pocket spending for health care, including health insurance, that exceeds $2,000 a year, rose from 37.3 percent in 1996 to 43.1 percent in 2003 – a 16 percent increase.

The complete article can be found here:

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

 

[HenryReardon]

Here is a source that seems to be irrefutable. Since the information was based on 2005, I don't think it much of a leap to project to 50,000 uninsured in 2007.

National Coalition on Healthcare!!! LOL That's a truly wonderful source of information. Not.

 

[NickCole]

National Coalition on Healthcare!!! LOL That's a truly wonderful source of information. Not.

Why not?

Did you even bother to look through the list of who sits on its Board? Who's on its staff, their bios? Do you know anything about the NCoH and its creds, its reputation, the information it provides or is it Bad simply because it exists?

Health care in the United States is a huge problem on more than one level and it needs to be addressed. The best solution is arguable, but simply letting it continue as it has is no solution.

 

[smelter]

National Coalition on Healthcare!!! LOL That's a truly wonderful source of information. Not.

Not good enough Henry ..... what do you find about the organization that is below your standards and laughable?

The National Coalition on Health Care is the nation's largest and most broadly representative alliance working to improve America's health care. The Coalition, which was founded in 1990 and is non-profit and rigorously non-partisan, is comprised of more than 70 organizations, employing or representing about 150 million Americans. Members are united in the belief that we need – and can achieve – better, more affordable health care for all Americans.

The Coalition brings together large and small businesses, the nation's largest labor, consumer, religious and primary care provider groups, and the largest health and pension funds. Distinguished leaders from academia, business, and government have also pledged their support of the Coalition's efforts. The Coalition's Honorary Co-Chairmen are former Presidents George Bush and Jimmy Carter, and its Co-Chairmen are former Governor Robert D. Ray (R-IA) and former Congressman Paul G. Rogers (D-FL). Its President is Henry E. Simmons, M.D., M.P.H., F.A.C.P.
info@nchc.org

Membership List:
AARP
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Actors' Equity Association
AFL-CIO
Ahold U.S.A., Inc.
Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Association of Community Colleges
American Association of State Colleges and Universities
American Cancer Society
American College of Nurse Midwives
American Council on Education
American Dental Education Association
American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), AFL-CIO
American Federation of Television and Radio Artists
American Federation of Teachers
American Fiber & Finishing S.C., Inc.
International Federation of Professional & Technical Engineers, AFL-CIO
International Foundation for Employee Benefit Plans
Iowa Farm Bureau Federation
Kellogg Company
Maternity Center Association
Michigan BlueCross/BlueShield
Motion Picture Association of America
Motion Picture and Television Fund
National Association of Chain Drug Stores
National Association of Childbearing Centers
New York State Teachers' Retirement System
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
Principal Financial Group
PSEG Services Corporation
Public Employees Retirement System of Ohio
Qwest Communications
Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism
Salvation Army
Sheet Metal Workers' International Union, AFL-CIO
Southern California Gas Company
State Teachers Retirement System of Ohio
Stop & Shop, Inc.
American Heart Association
Association of American Universities
Blue Shield of California
California Public Employees' Retirement System (CalPERS)
California State Teachers' Retirement System (CalSTRS)
Catholic Charities, USA
CodeBlueNow!
Colorado Public Employee Retirement Association
Communications Workers of America, AFL-CIO
Duke Energy
Duke University Medical Center
The Episcopal Church
Exelon Corporation
General Electric
Giant Food, Inc.
Gross Electric, Inc.
Group Health Cooperative
Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, AFL-CIO
International Brotherhood of Teamsters Union, AFL-CIO
National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities
National Conference of Public Employee Retirement Systems
National Consumers League
The National Coordinating Committee for Multi-Employer Plans
National Council of Churches of Christ in the U.S.A.
National Council on Teacher Retirement
National Education Association
New York State Common Retirement Fund
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
United Food and Commercial Workers International Union, AFL-CIO
UnitedHealth Group
United Methodist Church – General Board of Church and Society
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Utility Workers Union of America, AFL-CIO

 

[smelter]

Hey Nick ..... where did Henry go?

 

[HenryReardon]

Not good enough Henry ..... what do you find about the organization that is below your standards and laughable?

The first name on your list - AARP - has been controlled by left wing socialist scum for some time now. That organiation is almost single-handedly behind the defeat of social security reform.

I see a number of unions on the list as well - all highly suspect.

The whole concept is suspect. I don't want the government to do anything for me - I will take care of myself. All I ask is that the government not do anything to me.

Government only has three legitimate functions, and health care isn't one of them.

 

[smelter]

The first name on your list - AARP - has been controlled by left wing socialist scum for some time now. That organiation is almost single-handedly behind the defeat of social security reform.

I see a number of unions on the list as well - all highly suspect.

The whole concept is suspect. I don't want the government to do anything for me - I will take care of myself. All I ask is that the government not do anything to me.

Government only has three legitimate functions, and health care isn't one of them.

And what are those three legitimate functions .... Subsidizing Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big rich people?

AARP is the first name on the list, for the same reason Aardvark is the first word in the dictionary.

 

[Andreus]

The first name on your list - AARP - has been controlled by left wing socialist scum for some time now.

I see a number of unions on the list as well - all highly suspect.

The whole concept is suspect. I don't want the government to do anything for me - I will take care of myself. All I ask is that the government not do anything to me.

aarp is left wing socialist scum???

I can just hear them now

" Ida, my dear comrade, did you hear that Bob Barker quit the price is right?"

" Yes, Comrade Vivian, and it is a great blow to our forces worldwide for redistribiting the wealth of the world to our poor brethren.... by the way, can i get that recipe for your goulash?"

" Of course, Comrade Ida, as soon as I'm finished changing Comrade Barney's depends... we have to go to that rally today"

" OOOH dear.... I almost forgot... I saved all my old milk bottles for your molotov cocktails... shall i get my nephew, Comrade Shmoil, to bring them by?"

" No dear, Ida, I am using the ones I collected for cash on the road this morning while i was taking my exercise, but I thank you for your dedication, comrade"

" no problem, dear.... ooooh and don't forget to take your high blood pressure pills dear... you know how excited pepper spray can make you"

 

[Andreus]

That was not a source, that was deliberate misdirection.
Sit there and argue or not, you cannot make your case because there is none to be made - at least not as you so disingenuously state it.

so lets see... you dont make a case, and when people question you, you say they have no case....

WRONG answer dude

YOU have to prove your case first before others can go about the business of arguing against it.... if not we are just a gaggle of sqaulking geese making noise for nothing

 

[NickCole]

The first name on your list - AARP - has been controlled by left wing socialist scum for some time now. That organiation is almost single-handedly behind the defeat of social security reform.

I see a number of unions on the list as well - all highly suspect.

So it's only credible if one side is represented??

The remarkable thing about the NCoHC is that all sides are represented by strong advocates. The Board of Directors, for instance, boasts John Sweeney and Frank Carlucci -- just having those two names on one masthead without it going up in flames is an accomplishment in itself!

The whole concept is suspect.

The concept of coming up with a solution to a problem is suspect?

I don't want the government to do anything for me - I will take care of myself. All I ask is that the government not do anything to me.

Well then you can either opt to not participate in any health care program provided by or through the government, and take advantage of the government programs you DO want to be part of. Or you can go live in a country where the citizens have decided to divorce themselves from responsibility for one another -- but that's not what the United States is.

Government only has three legitimate functions, and health care isn't one of them.

And what, pre tell, are those three functions?

 

[smelter]

Henry's medical plan for those who can't afford it:

 

[Spensed]

Anyone in this country who really needs healthcare can find it.

Complete nonsense. It sounds like you're just trolling around.

You don't need anyone else to give you sources to refute what you're saying. Speak with some people who don't have health insurance, but have had major medical issues. Medical bills are one the main causes of personal bankruptcy in the US. Likewise check out all the statistics available on the web.

If you bothered to speak with anyone without health insurance, you'd know that emergency care is still available in many areas and there is a scarcity of overloaded clinics and charities that provide medical services. Beyond that you're on your own, which I guess is where you think you should be.

That does mean, for example, that, if your injured legs could be saved with surgery and physical therapy, they get amputated if you can't pay for treatment.

This is barabarism. You wouldn't dream of leaving someone to die in a burning building because they couldn't pay to get out. It's not surprising that folk who think things are ok the way they are can only repond with ignorance and denial.

Contrast that with (warts an' all) the government sponsored healthcare systems that do exist in the world or even with Medicare. The overhead cost of these systems runs at one or two percent. The overhead cost in the private systems in the US runs well into double digits. People in civilized countries shouldn't die and suffer because they can't afford medical care.

It makes sense for those folk who make money from it and who can afford it. It makes no sense for anyone else.

The Constitution expressly says that it's intended to "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity". Repeat after me...."to promote the general welfare..."

 

[HenryReardon]

Complete nonsense. It sounds like you're just trolling around.

You don't need anyone else to give you sources to refute what you're saying. Speak with some people who don't have health insurance, but have had major medical issues. Medical bills are one the main causes of personal bankruptcy in the US. Likewise check out all the statistics available on the web.

If you bothered to speak with anyone without health insurance, you'd know that emergency care is still available in many areas and there is a scarcity of overloaded clinics and charities that provide medical services. Beyond that you're on your own, which I guess is where you think you should be.

That does mean, for example, that, if your injured legs could be saved with surgery and physical therapy, they get amputated if you can't pay for treatment.

This is barabarism. You wouldn't dream of leaving someone to die in a burning building because they couldn't pay to get out. It's not surprising that folk who think things are ok the way they are can only repond with ignorance and denial.

Contrast that with (warts an' all) the government sponsored healthcare systems that do exist in the world or even with Medicare. The overhead cost of these systems runs at one or two percent. The overhead cost in the private systems in the US runs well into double digits. People in civilized countries shouldn't die and suffer because they can't afford medical care.

It makes sense for those folk who make money from it and who can afford it. It makes no sense for anyone else.

The Constitution expressly says that it's intended to "provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity". Repeat after me...."to promote the general welfare..."

I speak from personal experience. My partner is medically indigent - no insurance, and no funds. Twice in the past decade I have taken him to the ER while he was passing kidney stones. He received execellent care, and follow-up clinical care was available. This was in a city of about 500,000 population.

In many, if not all, states, ER facilities are forbidden to turn people away.

 

[HenryReardon]

And what are those three legitimate functions .... Subsidizing Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big rich people?

AARP is the first name on the list, for the same reason Aardvark is the first word in the dictionary.

According to pure Objectivist Philosophy, government has only three legitimate functions:

1. to provide a standing army to protect us from enemies without;
2. to provide a police force to protect us from enemies within;
3. to provide a system of courts so that we may seek redress with each other.

Period.

 

[Andreus]

According to pure Objectivist Philosophy, government has only three legitimate functions:

1. to provide a standing army to protect us from enemies without;
2. to provide a police force to protect us from enemies within;
3. to provide a system of courts so that we may seek redress with each other.

Period.

actually that would be considered federalist

and very few people believe that it is realistic in the complex society that america has become

it suggests that the richest nation on the planet should ignore its starving and its sick

and to that i will let lady liberty speak...

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your
teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed,
to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

i doubt they meant that the nations should send them so that they could starve

just a thought

 

[NickCole]

I speak from personal experience. My partner is medically indigent - no insurance, and no funds. Twice in the past decade I have taken him to the ER while he was passing kidney stones. He received execellent care, and follow-up clinical care was available. This was in a city of about 500,000 population.

In many, if not all, states, ER facilities are forbidden to turn people away.

You know, somebody paid for your partner's care.

Apparently it was neither you nor your partner.

So much for self sufficient.

And hopefully your partner won't get diagnosed with cancer or a chronic illness because the ER isn't equipped to handle that kind of thing.

 

[NickCole]

According to pure Objectivist Philosophy, government has only three legitimate functions:

1. to provide a standing army to protect us from enemies without;
2. to provide a police force to protect us from enemies within;
3. to provide a system of courts so that we may seek redress with each other.

Period.

And in which nation has such a government resulted in a successful society?

 

[sethjj1975]

you know whats sad. some prick will come in here and bash America for something. dont know what yet, but it isnt a good day on JUB is America isnt bashed for something so many other western EUROPEAN countries do. a big up for people who donate to charity though.

I love this country, but if we are going to spout of every chance we get about how we're the "Greatest Nation On The Planet", well then we better buck up and act like it.
The rest of the world doesn't dislike and distrust us simply because we're American, it's because we refuse to reach the standards we expect from everyone else and because we then refuse to apologize for anything. We're hardly infallible, and we either realize that or we go the way of he Romans.

Here's hoping we can elect a politician, in the next election, that actually cares about the American people's health, well being and freedoms!!

 

[HenryReardon]

And in which nation has such a government resulted in a successful society?

Nobody has had the balls to try it.

 

[HenryReardon]

You know, somebody paid for your partner's care.

Apparently it was neither you nor your partner.

So much for self sufficient.

And hopefully your partner won't get diagnosed with cancer or a chronic illness because the ER isn't equipped to handle that kind of thing.

You have deliberately missed the point. Of course, you knew that, didn't you.