The Amazing Race

[Gussss]

Whether Tammy and Victor's ability to speak Chinese was and advantage or not, I'm very happy they won the race.

I also found it funny that even after they got back to the states, the ex cheerleaders still had problems with their cab driver.

 

[aijalon18]

I think any shenanigans would have been eliminated if the producers would have never had a task that involved actually SPEAKING Chinese. Having a pit stop in China isnt that big a deal but the fact that a task where a team spoke Chinese is ridiculously unfair. And like falcon said it was a big game changer.

 

[Gussss]

I think any shenanigans would have been eliminated if the producers would have never had a task that involved actually SPEAKING Chinese. Having a pit stop in China isnt that big a deal but the fact that a task where a team spoke Chinese is ridiculously unfair. And like falcon said it was a big game changer.

How on Earth would the producers have had any idea that Tammy and Victor would have made it that far? They could've been elliminated before they got to China.

 

[YeahWhatever]

I don't think the producers were manipulating anything nor did I claim that they were. And those "great equalizers" didn't happen DURING these legs if you notice. They happened between them, for instance after China they all had the same flight to Florida but that doesn't change the fact that had Tammy and Victor not spoken fluent Chinese than it might have been Kisha and Jen on that flight for all we know.

Moral of the story is though I don't think the producers "manipulated" anything I do believe that if they knew the last two legs of the race were going to be in China they shouldn't have cast any teams that were fluent in Chinese.

In an earlier post, you said:

"I can't imagine that when they're casting they don't ask these people what language they're fluent in and I acknowledge that they can't know who's going to be in the final leg. But when the last destination is a country with an entirely different alphabet and one of the team gets a huge advantage over the other teams... I don't know."

I gathered that there was a consensus that people thought the game was manipulated in favor of T&V. I probably just read into it too much. My bad.

But when you say the "great equalizers" didn't happen during these legs and that it might have been Kisha and Jen instead of T&V in the final 3 -- I highly doubt that. K&J and the cheerleaders were neck to neck at the end, so it had to be one of those teams to be eliminated. Judging by how lost both of those teams were and how long they were lost for (and for how stupid they were for not realizing the clue box was 10 feet away from them), it was pretty much a shoo-in that T&V and Margie and Luke would be in the finale. K&J can only blame themselves for why they didn't make it further. Will we ever know whether T&V would have won the race if they didn't speak Mandarin? Probably not, but once all of the teams landed in Hawaii, it was best team wins.

I just don't think the fact that T&V spoke Mandarin in China was unfair. Teams have different skills that give them advantages at different tasks. Language isn't an exception.

 

[falconfan]

In an earlier post, you said:

"I can't imagine that when they're casting they don't ask these people what language they're fluent in and I acknowledge that they can't know who's going to be in the final leg. But when the last destination is a country with an entirely different alphabet and one of the team gets a huge advantage over the other teams... I don't know."

I gathered that there was a consensus that people thought the game was manipulated in favor of T&V. I probably just read into it too much. My bad.

But when you say the "great equalizers" didn't happen during these legs and that it might have been Kisha and Jen instead of T&V in the final 3 -- I highly doubt that. K&J and the cheerleaders were neck to neck at the end, so it had to be one of those teams to be eliminated. Judging by how lost both of those teams were and how long they were lost for (and for how stupid they were for not realizing the clue box was 10 feet away from them), it was pretty much a shoo-in that T&V and Margie and Luke would be in the finale. K&J can only blame themselves for why they didn't make it further. Will we ever know whether T&V would have won the race if they didn't speak Mandarin? Probably not, but once all of the teams landed in Hawaii, it was best team wins.

I just don't think the fact that T&V spoke Mandarin in China was unfair. Teams have different skills that give them advantages at different tasks. Language isn't an exception.

And what makes you think that Jen and Kisha and Cara and Jamie were "stupid" for not knowing exactly where the " Hu Guang Hui Guan Opera House" is in Beijing, China? Maybe I'm dim but I happen not to posses that knowledge either. It's the kind of thing that you have to ASK A LOCAL about, which can be a problem when you can't even pronounce things phonetically because those locals are speaking a language that you are entirely unfamiliar with. And if I remember correctly (and I may be wrong here) Margie and Luke also got lost on the streets of Beiijing, they just recovered faster than Cara and Jamie and Jen and Kisha. Quite frankly the fact that 100% of the teams that did the costume task made the mistake of wandering about leads me to believe that had Victor and Tammy done the costume task they would've made that same mistake and when you remember that Victor made them run up a hill for God knows how long in the earlier leg than you realize that Jen and Kisha could've very possibly made it to that yield before Victor and Tammy and who went home that episode was heavily effected on that very yield.

You are correct in stating it's a skill and I acknowledge there have been people who have skills that have coincided with specific road blocks. I guess I wouldn't say it 'unfair' but I would say it was LUCK (as you earlier disputed, which sparked my involvement in this discussion) that a specific skill they happened to have just happened to be extremely key to one of the most important pit stops on the race. And I think that if someone is for instance a polylang they shouldn't be barred from the show or anything like that just that if you know one team is completely fluent in the main language of a region that is at the end of the race and involved in multiple legs it would be nice if the producers didn't cast them for that season.

I mean as I said before I felt the same way when the Hippies, who had been getting along by the skin of their teeth (hitting last place in BOTH non-elimination legs) surged to the top during the last legs in Japan because they SPOKE Japanese and road that into the final leg to beat Eric and Jeremy, who had in the entire race only fallen below 2nd once. It just feels like something that must really suck for teams like Eric & Jeremy or Margie & Luke who consistently performed strongly but then found themselves handicapped because a dumb stroke of luck (which was forseeable by the producers) gives another team a huge advantage in the home stretch.

With Tammy and Victor it didn't bother me that much because they had been pretty strong throughout the race. Nonetheless I think it would be silly to argue that this wasn't both a huge and forseeable advantage that fortune tossed laps.

 

[falconfan]

How on Earth would the producers have had any idea that Tammy and Victor would have made it that far? They could've been elliminated before they got to China.

Well.... 5 out of the 11 teams, nearly half the teams, made it to China so the odds that Tammy and Victor would make it that far were pretty good. And as I said such things would be easily avoided by just not casting any couples that spoke the native tongue of a country that production intended to spend the last 3 episodes in

 

[YeahWhatever]

And what makes you think that Jen and Kisha and Cara and Jamie were "stupid" for not knowing exactly where the " Hu Guang Hui Guan Opera House" is in Beijing, China? Maybe I'm dim but I happen not to posses that knowledge either. It's the kind of thing that you have to ASK A LOCAL about, which can be a problem when you can't even pronounce things phonetically because those locals are speaking a language that you are entirely unfamiliar with. And if I remember correctly (and I may be wrong here) Margie and Luke also got lost on the streets of Beiijing, they just recovered faster than Cara and Jamie and Jen and Kisha. Quite frankly the fact that 100% of the teams that did the costume task made the mistake of wandering about leads me to believe that had Victor and Tammy done the costume task they would've made that same mistake and when you remember that Victor made them run up a hill for God knows how long in the earlier leg than you realize that Jen and Kisha could've very possibly made it to that yield before Victor and Tammy and who went home that episode was heavily effected on that very yield.

You are correct in stating it's a skill and I acknowledge there have been people who have skills that have coincided with specific road blocks. I guess I wouldn't say it 'unfair' but I would say it was LUCK (as you earlier disputed, which sparked my involvement in this discussion) that a specific skill they happened to have just happened to be extremely key to one of the most important pit stops on the race. And I think that if someone is for instance a polylang they shouldn't be barred from the show or anything like that just that if you know one team is completely fluent in the main language of a region that is at the end of the race and involved in multiple legs it would be nice if the producers didn't cast them for that season.

With Tammy and Victor it didn't bother me that much because they had been pretty strong throughout the race. Nonetheless I think it would be silly to argue that this wasn't both a huge and forseeable advantage that fortune tossed laps.

Yeah, I hold firm to my belief that K&J and the cheerleaders were stupid for not being able to find the " Hu Guang Hui Guan Opera House" more quickly, because if I were in the race and I walked for 3 hours with absolutely no idea where the clue was, I would go back to the beginning and look more closely. You're right, Margie and Luke wandered the streets too, but they had the common sense to go back after an hour. And if T&V didn't speak Mandarin and chose the costume task instead, I doubt they would be in the same predicament. After the similar incident in Transylvania (in which Tammy was smart enough to realize the situation), I'm sure T&V wouldn't go on walking for hours in the wrong direction for a second time.

And about the whole language as a "skill" or "advantage" thing. I'd go out on a limb and say all of the teams have seen the show before. If they really, really, really wanted to win this competition that requires traveling to countries around the world, wouldn't it be a worthwhile investment and advantage to say, learn a foreign language? I mean, we can argue that since Kisha and Jen were Division 1 athletes, was it unfair that they had a physical advantage over the other teams?

OK, I think I'm done beating the dead horse...

 

[aijalon18]

How on Earth would the producers have had any idea that Tammy and Victor would have made it that far? They could've been elliminated before they got to China.

OMG! I cant believe I need to explain this. Obviously they didnt know how far Tammy and Victor would have made it. But they did know ahead of time that they had a team that spoke fluent Chinese and no one else did. So just by knowing that there was a Chinese-speaking team they shouldnt have had a task where speaking fluent Chinese put you at a HUGE advantage. They could have had them all do something else.

 

[falconfan]

Yeah, I hold firm to my belief that K&J and the cheerleaders were stupid for not being able to find the " Hu Guang Hui Guan Opera House" more quickly, because if I were in the race and I walked for 3 hours with absolutely no idea where the clue was, I would go back to the beginning and look more closely. You're right, Margie and Luke wandered the streets too, but they had the common sense to go back after an hour. And if T&V didn't speak Mandarin and chose the costume task instead, I doubt they would be in the same predicament. After the similar incident in Transylvania (in which Tammy was smart enough to realize the situation), I'm sure T&V wouldn't go on walking for hours in the wrong direction for a second time.

And about the whole language as a "skill" or "advantage" thing. I'd go out on a limb and say all of the teams have seen the show before. If they really, really, really wanted to win this competition that requires traveling to countries around the world, wouldn't it be a worthwhile investment and advantage to say, learn a foreign language? I mean, we can argue that since Kisha and Jen were Division 1 athletes, was it unfair that they had a physical advantage over the other teams?

OK, I think I'm done beating the dead horse...

So basically, based on the fact that Tammy and Victor have shown a propensity to wander endlessly to a clue that they're told to "walk to" despite feeling like they've gone too far you're postulating that they wouldn't do exactly what they've shown a tendency to do? In what world does that make any sense? I'm not saying Kisha and Jen would have or wouldn't have gotten to the yield before or after Tammy and Victor but what I am saying is if the alternative was not a "speak Chinese" challenge the couple who already spoke Chinese would've been out wandering around like the other three teams and Tammy and Victor got to the road block about the same time as Tammy and Victor so there is NO way of predicting which would've gotten to the yeild first. I mean there's just no way of knowing. What we do know is that yeild cost Jen and Kisha the game and Tammy and Victor benefited greatly from breezing through the roadblock before that yeild because of their ability to speak Chinese

As for Jen and Kisha's athletic prowess that's an asset that's no different than the fact Victor knew who Chekov was (which BTW really EVERY OTHER CONBTESTANT you don't know who Chekov is? That's shameful.) Tammy and Victor were well educated and in certain situations that helped them. Jen and Kisha were athletic and in certain situations that helped them. But if the final task before the yeild was to run a few 100 meters and Jen and Kisha smoked everyone else and got to that yeild first I'd be saying... wow they got really lucky that the challenge was so suited to their specific abilities much like I"m saying Tammy and Victor got lucky.

As for your contention that they should learn some languages... I don't know how many you speak but I know three and they don't come very easy. You certainly can't become fluent in every language in the time between casting tells you you're in and you start.

 

[YeahWhatever]

Oh, poor horse.

When T&V wandered in vain for the clue in Europe, at least there was a visual marker that was throwing them off (the paint on the trees). And Tammy knew they were going the wrong way sooner rather than later, and it was just a matter of convincing her stubborn brother to turn around. On the other hand, K&J and the cheerleaders kept walking aimlessly, and sometimes, they just stood there in frustration complaining about how much they hated China. If I kept walking for 3 hours with completely no sign of a clue, yeah, I would turn my ass around and try to find something I overlooked. Again, Luke and Margie did it. If Cara/Jamie and Kisha/Jen were better racers, they would have done the same much sooner. Not to mention both teams stated that they saw Luke and Margie walk away and never came back. Hmmmmmm, maybe that's a red flag (no pun intended).

And I think we all clearly know what cost Jen and Kisha the game. A potty break. And factor in the time it took Jen to scarf down the food, and how much time they took up on the previous leg with the swimming challenge, etc. -- they took a number of missteps even with the yield out of the picture. If they did better in any one of those challenges, they would have been final 3.

And I'm not against any race contestant who has a special skill and wants to use it, whether it be knowledge of a foreign language or athletic ability. More power to them. Whether you want to call it "luck," it's subjective, but I don't think T&V should feel guilty that they knew Mandarin and used it to their advantage. I wouldn't expect them to forfeit that ability in order to appease anyone -- I wouldn't expect any team to forfeit any of their abilities as long as they were playing within the rules.

And I'm not saying you have to learn a language in order to play this game (it would definitely help). But no other team should be upset that another team has a linguistic advantage over the other, or any other advantage for that matter. I grew up speaking a foreign language and forgot most of it through childhood. I took 4 years of Spanish in high school and forgot most of it. If I entered this game and lost to a polyglot like yourself who used a foreign language to their advantage, I'd say they totally deserved the win.

 

[Gussss]

OMG! I cant believe I need to explain this. Obviously they didnt know how far Tammy and Victor would have made it. But they did know ahead of time that they had a team that spoke fluent Chinese and no one else did. So just by knowing that there was a Chinese-speaking team they shouldnt have had a task where speaking fluent Chinese put you at a HUGE advantage. They could have had them all do something else.

Arrogant much?

 

[falconfan]

Oh, poor horse.

When T&V wandered in vain for the clue in Europe, at least there was a visual marker that was throwing them off (the paint on the trees). And Tammy knew they were going the wrong way sooner rather than later, and it was just a matter of convincing her stubborn brother to turn around. On the other hand, K&J and the cheerleaders kept walking aimlessly, and sometimes, they just stood there in frustration complaining about how much they hated China. If I kept walking for 3 hours with completely no sign of a clue, yeah, I would turn my ass around and try to find something I overlooked. Again, Luke and Margie did it. If Cara/Jamie and Kisha/Jen were better racers, they would have done the same much sooner. Not to mention both teams stated that they saw Luke and Margie walk away and never came back. Hmmmmmm, maybe that's a red flag (no pun intended).

And I think we all clearly know what cost Jen and Kisha the game. A potty break. And factor in the time it took Jen to scarf down the food, and how much time they took up on the previous leg with the swimming challenge, etc. -- they took a number of missteps even with the yield out of the picture. If they did better in any one of those challenges, they would have been final 3.

And I'm not against any race contestant who has a special skill and wants to use it, whether it be knowledge of a foreign language or athletic ability. More power to them. Whether you want to call it "luck," it's subjective, but I don't think T&V should feel guilty that they knew Mandarin and used it to their advantage. I wouldn't expect them to forfeit that ability in order to appease anyone -- I wouldn't expect any team to forfeit any of their abilities as long as they were playing within the rules.

And I'm not saying you have to learn a language in order to play this game (it would definitely help). But no other team should be upset that another team has a linguistic advantage over the other, or any other advantage for that matter. I grew up speaking a foreign language and forgot most of it through childhood. I took 4 years of Spanish in high school and forgot most of it. If I entered this game and lost to a polyglot like yourself who used a foreign language to their advantage, I'd say they totally deserved the win.

Dude, you keep mentioning things that are completely irrelevant to the argument here. For instance, your insipid cheerleader bashing is completely without merit. Whether the cheerleaders are morons or not is irrelevant the sole question that's posed is whether the lucky advantage of having the final challenge before a yield tailored to their specific strength helped Victor & Tammy which it clearly did.

It's very clear that Jen and Kisha were so far ahead of the Cheerleaders that had they not been yielded they would've most certainly been in the final leg. We than have four possible scenarios: Margie & Luke make it to the yield first (Irrelevant. They used their yield), Tammy & Victor make it to the yield first and yield Jen and Kisha, Jen and Kisha make it to the yield before Tammy and Victor and don't get yielded, or Cara and Jamie make it to the yield (Irrelevant. Their performance is not effected by whether or not Tammy and Victor know Chinese so we can assume they'd still finish MUCH later than the sisters)

This then leaves us with a very simple question with a very simple answer. If Tammy and Victor didn't know fluent Chinese and did the costume challenge would they have taken longer than Jen and Kisha to find the yield? Answer: Maybe. There are reasons why we would believe that Tammy and Victor could get lost: Every other team got lost, They've gotten lost before, They've shown a propensity to continue with something after it clearly seems wrong, the locals in that area were giving all teams mixed directions.

They fact you say they've done it before is evidence they wouldn't do it again is proposterous. And the fact Tammy realized it was wrong before and didn't make Victor stop doesn't make it any more likely that she'd stop him this time. Regardless of what they said in their little interviews, they didn't change their dynamic at all. Victor was still stubborn and he still made the decisions, ignoring Tammy's concern. I mean in that very leg Tammy told them to quit the diving task much earlier but he insisted they keep it up.

Fact of the matter is that if that challenge wasn't wholly based on a persons ability to speak Chinese we don't know what would've happen. There's a chance JEn and Kisha would've made it to the final three. But LUCKILY for Victor and Tammy that critical challenge was suited to their strengths.

 

[falconfan]

Arrogant much?

Well it was pretty much common sense and he did need to explain it to you apparently... I'd say more shock and frustration than arrogance.

 

[Gussss]

Well it was pretty much common sense and he did need to explain it to you apparently... I'd say more shock and frustration than arrogance.

He felt the need to reiterate his POV. In my post I was thinking about episode three where Tammy and Victor were the next to last team to finish, almost elliminated. Had they been, there would be no purpose talking about their advantage in speaking Chinese.

I don't know how the show works, meaning I don't know if they set the route first or choose the contestants first. If the contestants are chosen first then I think Tammy and Victor were given an advantage, if they weren't elliminated previous to going to China. If the route was chosen first, then they got extremely lucky or if they were chosen because of their language skills, also getting an unfair advantage. It still depended on them not getting elliminated before China.

I don't mind having a discussion about things, but I didn't appreciate his condescending tone towards me. The tone towards him in my post wasn't that way.

That being said, my reply was to him, not you, so I don't appreciate your condescending tone either, but I understand where it comes from. I read you in other threads and I know that you, he, and a couple of your other buddies think you know every fucking thing there is to know about every fucking reality tv show on television.

Now you can be as much of an ass to me as you want.

 

[Ontariobear]

The members of the production company who chart the route and determine the tasks involved have nothing to do with the contestant interviews.

So what V&T had as far as languages go is no different than many other teams who speak Spanish and spend several legs in South America.

 

[falconfan]

He felt the need to reiterate his POV. In my post I was thinking about episode three where Tammy and Victor were the next to last team to finish, almost elliminated. Had they been, there would be no purpose talking about their advantage in speaking Chinese.

I don't know how the show works, meaning I don't know if they set the route first or choose the contestants first. If the contestants are chosen first then I think Tammy and Victor were given an advantage, if they weren't elliminated previous to going to China. If the route was chosen first, then they got extremely lucky or if they were chosen because of their language skills, also getting an unfair advantage. It still depended on them not getting elliminated before China.

You posed a question to counter his opinion, asking how the producers could know that Tammy and Victor would make it to China. HE had already touched on a fairly obvious response to his point: that they couldn't know how far they'd make it but they could've made it so that if they were having a language challenge NONE of the teams spoke that language in the event they made it that far. Explaining a point you overlooked and queried about is not "reiterating" an opinion but clarifying an unfounded challenge that was made to his statement.

I don't mind having a discussion about things, but I didn't appreciate his condescending tone towards me. The tone towards him in my post wasn't that way.

And I know from experience that having to restate yourself on a board because people don't bother to actually READ and entire post or selectively ignore the fact that you've already answered a specific challenge can be frustrating and irritating so the fact his 'tone' was frustrated and irritated is not at all surprising or unfounded.

That being said, my reply was to him, not you, so I don't appreciate your condescending tone either, but I understand where it comes from. I read you in other threads and I know that you, he, and a couple of your other buddies think you know every fucking thing there is to know about every fucking reality tv show on television.

Now you can be as much of an ass to me as you want.

I don't care who you were replyign to. You're posting on a public message board on an overarching debate which includes several people. You have no right to demand silence from the rest of the world. And as you noted I converse with Aij in more than a few threads and quite frankly if I see someone copping unfounded attitude with someone I consider a friend I'm going to support my friend and I don't care what you think about it. The fact of the matter is that me an aij are often diametrically apposed when it comes to opinions. But we have the decency to listen to what the other is saying and provide a counter point rather than just ignore the points of the other persons argument and repeat our own defunked points over and over again and then cop an attitude with that person when they tire of repeating themselves.

 

[falconfan]

The members of the production company who chart the route and determine the tasks involved have nothing to do with the contestant interviews.

So what V&T had as far as languages go is no different than many other teams who speak Spanish and spend several legs in South America.

Well I'm not sure if that's the case but if it is then I guess that's fair enough. Still if that's the case in my book simply being able to speak the local dialect shouldn't be a challenge in my book for just such an occasion.

 

[donniesmith1990]

"5 out of the 11 teams, nearly half the teams, made it to China so the odds that Tammy and Victor would make it that far were pretty good. And as I said such things would be easily avoided by just not casting any couples that spoke the native tongue of a country that production intended to spend the last 3 episodes i"


Oh crap that means they shouldnt have cast any english speaking people because of the last episode...cuz you know English is a speaking langauge in Hawaii, everybody would have an advantage.


Come on guys seriously have you considered that maybe the choice of countries might have been decided even before final castings? And many teams in the past has also spoken different languages as well. Why throw all of that out this time? You have to admit that most people tend to know or have the knowledge to learn a different language. Just leave it at that.

Tammy and Victor won it's over n done with. Be happy

btw Luke is so cute in speedos

 

[falconfan]

Oh crap that means they shouldnt have cast any english speaking people because of the last episode...cuz you know English is a speaking langauge in Hawaii, everybody would have an advantage.


Come on guys seriously have you considered that maybe the choice of countries might have been decided even before final castings? And many teams in the past has also spoken different languages as well. Why throw all of that out this time? You have to admit that most people tend to know or have the knowledge to learn a different language. Just leave it at that.

Tammy and Victor won it's over n done with. Be happy

btw Luke is so cute in speedos

I didn't say that but speaking English was not a detour... and truth be told I don't know how they arrange the show but I'd imagine the intricacies of travel and getting the proper permits to film in China is probably somethign that needs to be sured up before casting.

I think Aij hit it on the head when he said the issue was the fact that there was a whole challenge, the most important challenge in quite some time, based on this.

 

[donniesmith1990]

Remember when Mirna and her dwarf sister (was it sister or cousin) had alot of spanish speaking countries in which they were fluent in. Even with all of that advantage they still had to overcome alot of obsticles just as Tammy and Victor has. I'm sure that if Margie or Luke would have won, nobody would even be talking about this. It's rediculous, the better team won. Luke messed up and that allowed T&V to win.