The best health care system the world has ever known

[White Eagle]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018523.php

June 8, 2009

THE BEST SYSTEM SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME.... There's a script Republicans lawmakers are supposed to stick to on health care. They're encouraged to engage in anti-government demagoguery, but they're also not supposed to defend the status quo. After all, if there's one thing most Americans agree on in this debate, it's that the current system is a mess.

It's why I found Sen. Richard Shelby's (R-Ala.) remarks on Fox News yesterday pretty interesting.

"One, we don't know how much [a reform package is] going to cost and who's going to pay for it," he said. "Secondly, it will be the first steps in destroying the best health care system the world has ever known."

It just keeps getting better and better. Does this pug think that the public will believe him? Maybe his constituents do.

 

[HenryReardon]

do. I think he is speaking out of pride for his country, but the US ranks 37th in healthcare worldwide as it were. Interestingly enough, we are first in response time.

As measured how? And by whom?

 

[Spensed]

As measured how? And by whom?

The usual knee jerk defensiveness. The last time, as I remember, you refused to believe a source you originally quoted so I would caution folk about spilling their seed on barren soil. LOL.

 

[HenryReardon]

The World Health Organization

Ah, yes. The infamous WHO ranking done in 2000, after which they stopped trying to create such a ranking. You spout the stats, but do you have any idea how they were created? I looked it up:

WHO Healthcare Ranking

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

WHO’s assessment system was based on five indicators:

1. Overall level of population health;

2. Health inequalities (or disparities) within the population;

3. Overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts);

4. Distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system);

5. And the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

Only one item on that list of five criteria has any remote connection to quality of health care, and it is so nebulous as to be meaningless.

 

[HenryReardon]

You might find this interesting, although I doubt it will change your mind:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451570546396929.html

Congressional Democrats will soon put forward their legislative proposals for reforming health care. Should they succeed, tens of millions of Americans will potentially be joining a new public insurance program and the federal government will increasingly be involved in treatment decisions.

Not long ago, I would have applauded this type of government expansion. Born and raised in Canada, I once believed that government health care is compassionate and equitable. It is neither.

My views changed in medical school. Yes, everyone in Canada is covered by a "single payer" -- the government. But Canadians wait for practically any procedure or diagnostic test or specialist consultation in the public system.

The problems were brought home when a relative had difficulty walking. He was in chronic pain. His doctor suggested a referral to a neurologist; an MRI would need to be done, then possibly a referral to another specialist. The wait would have stretched to roughly a year. If surgery was needed, the wait would be months more. Not wanting to stay confined to his house, he had the surgery done in the U.S., at the Mayo Clinic, and paid for it himself.

 

[andysayshi]

(Sigh)... One more time:

According to the World Health Organization, the US is rated 37.

In a little more detail, according to The Commonwealth Fund's 2007 analysis:

The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. [...]

Among the six nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in the 2006 and 2004 editions of Mirror, Mirror. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. The 2007 edition includes data from the six countries and incorporates patients' and physicians' survey results on care experiences and ratings on various dimensions of care.

Full article

As has been mentioned in other threads, if the current US healthcare system continues unchanged, the US will be bankrupt by 2050. If not Universal Healthcare ... what should be changed?

 

[White Eagle]

As measured how? And by whom?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.

Rank Country
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba

Sorry to burst your bubble. I know how much you want to believe everything Elephangelical.

 

[White Eagle]

Andy, sorry I didn't refresh before I made my post. I like yours better. Not only does it cite the link I cited but you went further. Thanks.

 

[andysayshi]

^ Most welcome!

 

[HenryReardon]

Sorry to burst your bubble. [/quot...y measured ACCESS to healthcare, not QUALITY.

 

[Apollo]

There's no bubble to be burst. As I've already shown, the WHO report is meaningless in that it only measured ACCESS to healthcare, not QUALITY.

Well how can anyone enjoy our quality of health care if they have no access to it? And they are going bankrupt and becoming homeless because of it?

 

[crzyrazn]

Well how can anyone enjoy our quality of health care if they have no access to it? And they are going bankrupt and becoming homeless because of it?

My, oh my, he got you there, Henry. I can't believe you are defending the US healthcare system.

 

[HenryReardon]

Well how can anyone enjoy our quality of health care if they have no access to it? And they are going bankrupt and becoming homeless because of it?

Who says they don't have access. We've been down this road before.
The care is there, especially in large cities which have free clinics.

 

[HenryReardon]

My, oh my, he got you there, Henry. I can't believe you are defending the US healthcare system.

The US has the best available healthcare in the world.

If you want to argue about distribution, then be honest about it and say so.

Our founding documents do not guarantee life, liberty, and free healthcare.

When you dream your looter dreams of the government stealing money at gunpoint from other people so all your needs can be paid for - be careful what you wish for.

 

[crzyrazn]

The US has the best available healthcare in the world.

If you want to argue about distribution, then be honest about it and say so.

Our founding documents do not guarantee life, liberty, and free healthcare.

When you dream your looter dreams of the government stealing money at gunpoint from other people so all your needs can be paid for - be careful what you wish for.

No one is questioning the quality of the US healthcare system. The whole debate has always been about how to give more people access to health services through a comprehensive, equitable, cost effective means.

Free healthcare? No, nothing is ever free. But for our health, and the health of our nation, in order that we may pursue life, liberty, and happiness, we should see to it that all of our citizens should not want for healthcare. It is not stealing when we give it freely, so as a nation we are not left with a disproportionate population in terms of the medical services they receive. As a citizen of this nation, I do not mind paying for a universal plan so that we all may receive the benefits and right of healthcare. I am sorry you do not feel the same way.

 

[Apollo]

Who says they don't have access. We've been down this road before.
The care is there, especially in large cities which have free clinics.

The free clinics? Where doctors volunteer their time, they don't have enough supplies for the amount of people who come in there?

Those free clinics, where they only do basic healthcare, and a lot of people have to go to a actually charging hospital to get the actual care they need, which eventually ruins peoples lives in the long run?

Those free clinics, where there are too many people waiting in line in a day to get things done.

Sure, free clinics.

 

[Apollo]

The US has the best available healthcare in the world.

If you want to argue about distribution, then be honest about it and say so.

Our founding documents do not guarantee life, liberty, and free healthcare.

When you dream your looter dreams of the government stealing money at gunpoint from other people so all your needs can be paid for - be careful what you wish for.

No one is debating the quality. The quality of our healthcare is amazing. Then after you get that quality healthcare, watch your quality of life deminish as you battle your insurance company, or you just never had the insurance but you were rushed to the hospital and doctors are obliged to save your life.

People always ignore how universal health care end up costing governments less in the long run. Why is that Henry?

 

[White Eagle]

You might find this interesting, although I doubt it will change your mind:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451570546396929.html

Ah, yes, the good old wsj. The consertive news rag owned by the owner of faux snooze. Then the Dr. who wrote the article,

Dr. Gratzer, a physician, is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute

The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (renamed in 1981 from the International Center for Economic Policy Studies) is a conservative[1][2], market-oriented[3] think tank established in New York City in 1978 by Antony Fisher and William J. Casey, with its headquarters at 52 Vanderbilt Avenue in Midtown Manhattan.[4]

 

[HenryReardon]

People always ignore how universal health care end up costing governments less in the long run. Why is that Henry?

Because of the rationing of healthcare that ensues. Because of the failure to spend adequately on technology. The list is endless.

For example, if you have a serious medical problem in the USA and visit your Doctor, you can have access to either a CAT scan or an MRI within 24 hours, sometimes even less.

Where else in the world is that happening???????

 

[Apollo]

Because of the rationing of healthcare that ensues. Because of the failure to spend adequately on technology. The list is endless.

For example, if you have a serious medical problem in the USA and visit your Doctor, you can have access to either a CAT scan or an MRI within 24 hours, sometimes even less.

Where else in the world is that happening???????

In the US, you get an MRI or CAT scan if you have insurance or the equivalent. Cause these days, hospitals won't even look further than your initial problem if you don't have the money to pay them.

Myth 3: Canadians are flocking to the U.S. because they can’t get services in Canada that they need.
Fact: Studies based on in-patient discharge data, by the prominent research periodical Health Affairs,
show that most Canadian admissions to U.S. hospitals were unrelated to waiting times or to leading-edge
technology commonly associated with this myth.
Fact: The vast majority of health care services provided to Canadians by U.S. hospitals were emergency or
urgent care, mostly related to travel within the U.S.
Conclusion: Canadians are not coming to the U.S. because they cannot access health care in their own
country. In fact, the data indicates that Canadians are extremely satisfied with their health care system.

Myth 4: Universal health care would deprive citizens of needed services
Fact: Studies show that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital
days than in the U.S.
Fact: About 46 million Americans and 6 million Californians are uninsured. The U.S. already deprives its
residents of health care when they can’t afford it, or can’t get insurance because of pre-existing
conditions.
Fact: Americans have problems accessing health care due to payment problems or lack of available care-
- far more than any other industrialized nation. About 17 percent of the population is without health
insurance. Approximately another 75 percent of ill people who are uninsured have trouble accessing or
paying for health care.

Myth 5: The United States has the best health care system in the world.
Fact: The Institute of Medicine reports that patients get treated according to clinical guideline only 50% of
the time, and that there are 98,000 deaths per year due to medical error. This is equivalent to a jumbo jet
crashing every day. In addition, the United States rates 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and
21st in 1990.
Fact: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure shows
the United States to rank below many industrialized nations, including Canada.
Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care-- despite
having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized
nation.

http://www.uulmca.org/documents/healthcare_myths.pdf