The Cannibalisation of the United States

[BostonPirate]

America is Englands closest ally, and its very convenient for you guys that we carry so much of the military costs associated with that alliance.

Its foolish to insult the man that fights beside you.

Americas solvency at times has been stressed due to joint american brit military ventures, and it has had economic stress when we assisted you in WW1 and WW2.

I am not fond of generic america bashing. This whole idea that the USA is going to crumble in a year or two is just foolish.

our expected roll as police patrol of the UN is not cheap, and even when we are broke, we find a way.

America still has the largest and most vital economy on the planet, and our national argument involves the american desire to keep it that way and fix the budgetary issues we have.

So get off the soap box and show a little respect to the nation that is your sworn closest friend once in a while.

 

[EwanSF]

America is Englands closest ally, and its very convenient for you guys that we carry so much of the military costs associated with that alliance.

Its foolish to insult the man that fights beside you.

Britain, not England. And I do not approve of any military alliance with your country, so stressing the importance of such an agreemant is a waste of time. This military alliance has been utterly unneccassary since the end of the second world war, the last conflict, in my mind, where either of our countries did any good on the global stage.

I am not fond of generic america bashing. This whole idea that the USA is going to crumble in a year or two is just foolish.

I was not indulging in any sort of generic America bashing, I was presenting my understanding of history from what I have read on the topic. I despise the attitude that a lot of you people seam to have, where the US came charging in on a white steed to save the day. That is not the way it happened. You were forced into an alliance with us due to your declaration of war against Japan. My relatives had spent the better part of the subsequent 3 years having their homes bombed, watching their friends die. Your motives for getting involved were anything but altruistic, and your romanticised view of America as some sort of messianic force, saving the world from nazi tyrany is fucking insulting.

That aside, I didn't say anything about america collapsing. I do believe your empire is on the way out, much the same way every other bit the dust eventualy, a fact that leaves me utterly baffled as to why imperialism still exists. Any student of history will see that any and every empire has, and will end badly.

our expected roll as police patrol of the UN is not cheap, and even when we are broke, we find a way.

Believe it or not, but the collosal majority of the people in the world would rather you didn't.

America still has the largest and most vital economy on the planet, and our national argument involves the american desire to keep it that way and fix the budgetary issues we have.

I am utterly against globalisation so arguing that your economy is globaly vital is a mut point, it will convince me of nothing.

 

[BostonPirate]

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[BostonPirate]

Everytime someone points to America as saving England during WWII, I wonder who was fighting on the eastern front against the Nazis and who paid with tens of millions of lives... the Soviets never get the credit they deserve.

America wasn't involved directly in the war, beyond the African theater, until much later on.

so we did nothing to help our allies in WW2?

Is that where were coming to in general hatred for the nation? IT took the world to beat back the Nazis

When brits are in trouble, america shows up. When america is in trouble, Brittain laughs.

its very charming

 

[EwanSF]

Gonna have to disagree there man, America was heavily involved in the European theater, Normandy Landings, the invasion of Italy.

But I agree, people downplay the soviet involvment, despite the enormity of their sacrafice.

 

[EwanSF]

Fair enough. My point was though, while I do not deny America was heavily involved, I hate this notion that a lot of yanks seem to be spoon-fed from childhood, that they swooped in and saved us poor helpless Eurofags from our impending doom. It's jingoistic bullshit. As with every conflict, it was purely self-interest that drove them to enter it.

 

[BostonPirate]

Fair enough. My point was though, while I do not deny America was heavily involved, I hate this notion that a lot of yanks seem to be spoon-fed from childhood, that they swooped in and saved us poor helpless Eurofags from our impending doom. It's jingoistic bullshit. As with every conflict, it was purely self-interest that drove them to enter it.

really?

pointing out an ingratitude??? for help as Hitler was trying to Bomb you guys out of existence?

pardon the FUCK out of me, but how would YOU know what we are taught? I am sure your ivory tower hasn't included a reality check on what you think of america

believe me, My eyes have been opened about what brits think of americans and our contributions to their nation and defense here.

ITs not a lesson I will soon forget

 

[palemale]

really?

pointing out an ingratitude??? for help as Hitler was trying to Bomb you guys out of existence?

pardon the FUCK out of me, but how would YOU know what we are taught? I am sure your ivory tower hasn't included a reality check on what you think of america

believe me, My eyes have been opened about what brits think of americans and our contributions to their nation and defense here.

ITs not a lesson I will soon forget

Let's not forget the enormous contribution American corporations, like Ford and IBM, made to the Nazi war effort. Before the United States got into the war, even after, American corporate skills were at the disposal of Nazi Germany. So, let's not be so quick to pat ourselves on the back.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoM8RB-kJ0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoM8RB-kJ0[/ame]

It is an article of faith in American culture that we have been the saviors of the world, delivering them from Nazi and Communist domination. In actuality, the American military machine throughout history has served mostly American corporate interests. The problem now is that our military spending will sink us. American military might has been mostly used to make the world safe for corporations to outsource our jobs.

 

[BostonPirate]

Let's not forget the enormous contribution American corporations, like Ford and IBM, made to the Nazi war effort. Before the United States got into the war, even after, American corporate skills were at the disposal of Nazi Germany. So, let's not be so quick to pat ourselves on the back.

It is an article of faith in American culture that we have been the saviors of the world, delivering them from Nazi and Communist domination. In actuality, the American military machine throughout history has served mostly American corporate interests. The problem now is that our military spending will sink us. American military might has been mostly used to make the world safe for corporations to outsource our jobs.

I will remember that the next time I see an aniversary memorial of the invasion of normandy.

It was american corporations that were killing our men, not the Nazis

 

[palemale]

I will remember that the next time I see an aniversary memorial of the invasion of normandy.

It was american corporations that were killing our men, not the Nazis

History is a little more complicated than that, BP. I take nothing away from the bravery and commitment of our military and soldiers who fought the Nazis. I had an uncle who fought at Normandy and another at Iwo Jima. I just refuse to put the blinders on and ignore that which is also ugly in our history.

It is also true, however, that American corporations were complicate in the killing American soldiers by assisting the Nazis. IBM was complicate in the murder of Jews and others in the concentration camps because their know-how and hard work made the Nazi killing machine more efficient. If ever anyone needed evidence that corporations have no allegiance to this country and the welfare of our citizens, they need only look at WWII.

 

[EwanSF]

really?

pointing out an ingratitude??? for help as Hitler was trying to Bomb you guys out of existence?

pardon the FUCK out of me, but how would YOU know what we are taught? I am sure your ivory tower hasn't included a reality check on what you think of america

believe me, My eyes have been opened about what brits think of americans and our contributions to their nation and defense here.

ITs not a lesson I will soon forget

I wasn't being remotely ungrateful. I know how many young, working class Americans layed down their lives to help us. I was trying to challange the ridculous prevailing view that most of you hold that victory was entirely down to you. As I've already pointed out, you left us alone to be bombed for three years before you got involved, so please, ditch the indignation, it's insulting. You helped us immensly to bring the war to a more speedy conclusion, but get the idea out of your head that you saved Britain and the rest of Europe. If Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union, we might be having a different conversation, but he did and he was always going to.

 

[MoltenRock III]

History is a little more complicated than that, BP. I take nothing away from the bravery and commitment of our military and soldiers who fought the Nazis. I had an uncle who fought at Normandy and another at Iwo Jima. I just refuse to put the blinders on and ignore that which is also ugly in our history.

It is also true, however, that American corporations were complicate in the killing American soldiers by assisting the Nazis. IBM was complicate in the murder of Jews and others in the concentration camps because their know-how and hard work made the Nazi killing machine more efficient. If ever anyone needed evidence that corporations have no allegiance to this country and the welfare of our citizens, they need only look at WWII.

Gotta love how the rah rah America crowd of WWII who today are so against Blackwater, Halliburton, et al now, somehow think the same wasn't happening during any other war. It shows you how little they know. *shrug*

 

[JB3]

progressiveness is the only thing that has saved America from its own selfish desires time and time again. once we stop being progressive, we will fall.

the latest example of this is the senate voting to keep billions in tax subsidies intact for big oil.

when americans are paying record high prices for gas, you would think there would be rioting in the streets when big oil gets its way?

Americans are simply too lazy, too apathetic, too misinformed to notice. it doesnt stop with voting for obama.

there are a few liberals fighting to save America, but far too few citizens.

i really believe it will be the younger generation who will eventually bear the burden republicans have wrought. and it will be up to us to take america away from the corporations and give it back to the people.

it will be a thankless job, with those fighting to protect Americas economic and social freedoms alive getting blamed for trying to change things for the better.

we have soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting a faceless nameless opponent in the name of preserving freedom and spreading democracy all the while its being sold to corporate America at home.

Interesting you cite progressivism, considering that the constructs of progressivism are going to be responsible for bankrupting the country.

 

[JB3]

It goes back 35 years. It was under Carter that the country began to unlearn the lessons of history. In the late 19th and 20th Century, beginning with the Progressive Era, Americans began to confront the excesses of capitalsim. Labor unions became powerful forces on behalf of working people and were instrumental in creating a stable, strong middle class. With the New Deal, the government regulated businesses to prevent the boom and bust cycles, and abusive business practices. The civil rights revolution enabled millions of African Americans to begin participating fully in American life, followed by the women's movement. By the sixties and early seventies, the government began to aggressively regulate environmental protections.

Under Carter, the break-up of AT&T, and other moves to deregulate began. It has been all down hill after that.

Incidentally, for those who are triumphalist, the major push to build labor unions came from European immigrants, especially the Irish, followed later by Jews and Italians. Much of the New Deal programs were based on the programs enacted in New York at the behest of the Democratic Party machine in New York City, which was largely an Irish immigrant party, albeit one that incorporated the talent and energy of the newer Jewish and other immigrant groups. It was the communitarian impulses of the Catholic/socialist/Bund, etc, European ideas that fueled the growth of the middle class in this country.

I agree with the EastMed and MRIII that the United States is sliding fast. Our only hope is to aggressively confront the Tea Party/Corporate/Right Wing Republican agenda before they completely destroy the country.

It goes back further than that. It can be found in the attitude shift that occurred during the New Deal when it came to government power and reach. Attitudes prior to that always were that the government was a small thing meant to have limited responsibilities and limited reach. After the new deal, all of that was gone. Government was granted the power to seemingly do whatever it pleased if it was 'for the good'. That attitude shift was far more damaging than anything else.

 

[bankside]

No, no, no, no, we're not playing that game sunshine

And anyway, you saved fuck all, you merely accelerated the inevitable. The nazis were overconfidant and over-reaching. The Battle of Britain was where we destroyed any chance of the Germans ever invading Britain. The vast majority of historians agree that operation sealion would have been an unmitigated diaster for the germans without the luftwaffe. Coupled with their failed campaign in the USSR, it would have only been a matter of time before they were defeated.

Do you mean for us to believe that the United Kingdom itself had something to do with the end of World War II?!

Pfft. What next? Try to convince us that the Canadians had something to do with it? All those Canucks trying to upstage an American victory with their Peace Tower and its Memorial Chamber filled with Books of Remembrance of soldiers who weren't even trying to be American!

America is Englands closest ally, and its very convenient for you guys that we carry so much of the military costs associated with that alliance.

Its foolish to insult the man that fights beside you.

Americas solvency at times has been stressed due to joint american brit military ventures, and it has had economic stress when we assisted you in WW1 and WW2.

I am not fond of generic america bashing. This whole idea that the USA is going to crumble in a year or two is just foolish.

our expected roll as police patrol of the UN is not cheap, and even when we are broke, we find a way.

America still has the largest and most vital economy on the planet, and our national argument involves the american desire to keep it that way and fix the budgetary issues we have.

So get off the soap box and show a little respect to the nation that is your sworn closest friend once in a while.

Actually Canada is the closest ally of the United States, and I mean that not just geographically, but operationally. It's foolish to ignore the neighbour that has fought beside you. I am not fond of generic America bashing. I am fond of letting the air out of arrogant American claims for some kind of special status in the world that is not warranted and not forthcoming. The United States is a very good country. Or if I may rephrase that in a way that makes the skin crawl on one too many American:

The United States is a very good country.
Among many.

If Americans want Washington to be the Capital of the Free World™ or some such chest-thumping crap, instead of just another friendly neighbour, they'd better open up Congress for my vote and Ewan's vote and everyone else's. Otherwise they're just another overlording dictatorship that we can do without. Literally, we can manage without it.

 

[Kulindahr]

but we didn't blanche

we didnt let you rot. Capitalism saved your nation from the nazis

live with that.

The NRA saved them as well. The British didn't own enough firearms to defend the coast if they'd had to, the U.S. government wasn't doing arms deals yet, so the NRA got organized and shipped thousands of rifles over.

So, early in the war, don't be trying to claim the U.S. did nothing for Britain (more than arms got shipped, BTW). It was the U.S. government which dithered -- until Roosevelt let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor so the people would get angry and Congress would wake up.

 

[bankside]

The NRA saved them as well. The British didn't own enough firearms to defend the coast if they'd had to, the U.S. government wasn't doing arms deals yet, so the NRA got organized and shipped thousands of rifles over.

So, early in the war, don't be trying to claim the U.S. did nothing for Britain (more than arms got shipped, BTW). It was the U.S. government which dithered -- until Roosevelt let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor so the people would get angry and Congress would wake up.

Nobody survived the Blitz by arming themselves. Perhaps you are familiar with the western-world-notion of the "charity drive" whereby a group of well-meaning do-gooders ship three full containers of children's socks to the bewildered residents of some other country, who have no desperate need for socks, but where the socks put sock vendors out of business whilst creating a feeling of smug satisfaction among the donors.

 

[EwanSF]

Was gonna say something snide, but you beat me to it.

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

Did I say that?

America was involved, but mostly was wrapped up in the Pacific Theater.

The Russians took losses in the tens of millions, and the accusation is America was quite late.

People always downplay the Russians.

To bad your selective history here only list the the Russian causalities in general terms and fails to mention the fact that Nazi Germany invaded Russia and savagely attacked the Country first. Could there be any doubt that Russia was heavily involved in its vengeance and vigor in going after those that caused incredible misery and suffering on there people and homelands???


...This certainly is taught in all public schools at many grade levels in the USA. It is understood that Russia was vital in WWII against Hitler and it is understood why the hatred was very high for German blood from the Russians.

But would Russia have been as vigorous and relentless had Hitler not attacked Russia?
Or would it have be more like some other European countries?


While I thought Saving Private Ryan was a good movie, I think the opening 30 minutes should be shown in US High Schools uncut to show the incredible suffering and courage that the yanks, along with some allies put forth on D-day.
Anyone who doubts the suffering and loss that America put forth to help rescue Europe from Hitler really needs to view this very accurate portrayal of the event.

Just the first 20 or so minutes.

For some kid from Alabama to die thousands of miles from home in some a hell on the shores of Normandy beach that doesn't mean shit to him in the first place is something I hope will never occur on the shores of Miami but I would never hold my breath to see a bunch of French, German, or English lads holding there guts in as there best friends head next to the looks like a egg that hit the floor.

 

[EastMed]

Operation Barbarossa sealed Hitler's fate.

(But that's not what this thread is about, lol)