On Topic Discussion The Day Our Cultures Died

[kallipolis]

the current fixation on the evils of Christianity and/or Islam is but a product of effete intellectualism that is more bent on being countercultural than being accurate or insightful.

Well noted for the OPs opening post, and second post is confusing religion, with politically orchestrated control of the masses, a fact of life not lost on ideologically driven political movements in the 20th century when Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco adopted measures that have been used for thousands of years by tribal rulers to control their respective tribes.

Keeping it brief while noting the OPs reference to Celtic peoples that had migrated to The British Isles, he might consider that prior to the arrival of Christianity in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, The Celtic tribes had a highly developed religious culture...read up on The Druids, that New Agers have since the 1960s adopted, and revived.

 

[Benvolio]

The rules of the forum forbid us from discussing the relative value of cultures, since they equate culture with race.
I would point out that the Romans over ran most of the cultures you are talking about and began romanizing them before Christianity. Moreover much of what we know of those prior cultures we owe to the Romans, since the prior cultures often did not have writing. For much of Europe, it was Christianity which introduced writing. You may romanticize the prior cultures, but the fact is we don't know much about them. Much of what we know has be rediscovered by archeologists. The prior cultures as with most cultures in history revolved largely around religion, and their religions, or at least what we know about them are not appealing. The Celts, for instance practiced
human sacrifice.
Now, it must also be said that Christianity, as it has evolved, is superior to the older cultures in many respects. Western music, with greater development of instruments and a much wider variety of content, should objectively be considered superior. Is anything known about pre Christian German music for instance? They may have had a stringed instrument or a flute, but no orchestras or pipe organs.
Much of what we value about culture and living is the result of Christianity.
Modern democracy, free enterprise, and the industrial revolution are largely the result of the Protestant Reformation with its emphasis on individual responsibility and individual freedom.

 

[rareboy]

In one respect, the Balkanization of the Roman Empire may have been the salvation of regional cultures, because the complete Romanization of the west meant the spread and re-establishment of non-Roman culture and practise.

And as we know, Christianity was as absorptive as a sponge, reshaping and refining itself to take on many aspects of pagan religions.

In some ways, it was the early regional church that helped preserve enough information about pre-christian societies and practises that we even have the opportunity to reach backwards and discover more about our pre-Roman era roots.

I am more afraid that the pre-colonial world is in danger of being totally lost now because of global brands and businesses.

The 'International Style' is planting blandness and conformity in lifestyle in the most unexpected parts of the globe and may finish the job of completely westernizing the entire world where religion failed.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Can you elaborate?

First, let's remember that psychoanalysis is highly speculative, hence we get people who believe Freud was correct, while others reject him.

Jung, and others, believe there is evidence for a collective unconscious which stems from shared experiences or images from our ancestors, going right back to the beginning. Certain things persist in the human psyche, such as the Tree of Life. It is primal.

Because you have raised the question of religion's role, it is therefore appropriate to invoke Jung who argued that we retain this innate knowledge that is shared by the entire human race. It may be suggested that the myths that succeed in humanity are the ones that resonate to that collective memory (although it is not overt memory.)

So, the same Eastern metaphysicists (who should be called Western Adopters, as they have indeed sacrificed their culture to adopt Eastern Mysticism), would have to embrace Jung's concept of the transcendent, as it is in harmony with the notion of the connectedness of all life and the recurrence of the soul.

As science, it is very difficult to prove conclusively. However, I remember in college studying an experiment alleged to have evidence of the collective unconscious. Planarians (primitive flatworms) don't actually have brains in the sense that mammals do, more like they have nervous systems that meet that need without a big computer. The experiment shocked the planarians when a light was introduced, and the worms "learned" to associate pain with the light. There is no natural fear of light in planarians. The creatures soon developed a Pavlovian response to the light, and recoiled in anticipation of pain before any shock was applied or even if not applied. But the bizarre thing is that the next generation of planarians exhibited the same reaction to light even when they had never been shocked ever: they recoiled from an experience they never had directly.

The paper from 1965 is here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiij7vL0p7SAhUM74MKHYK7AG0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fase.tufts.edu%2Fbiology%2Flabs%2Flevin%2Fresources%2Fdocuments%2FPlanarianManual.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHuNu837ylPQBhgQjAO3i4wAhOfaA&sig2=OG42ZKYldqRVmXlFrt2B7g&cad=rja No doubt, as in all research, there are refuters and rebutters, but it is a fascinating premise.

 

[kallipolis]

The Hellenistic Period (2500 BCE circa) in Greece has bequeathed the human race with an enormous treasure of writings, philosophy, and political firsts such as The Constitution of Athens with the added awareness that literacy in the Greek city states, was sufficiently advanced to enable much of the population to participate in the growing of democratic processes that has influenced so many emerging democracies in the rest of the world

It should be noted that despite the conquest of Greece by Roman armies, Greek culture was embraced by Rome....and, The Eastern provinces of The Roman Empire otherwise known as The Byzantine Empire flourished into the late 15th century before falling before The Ottoman Conquest. It is no secret that New Rome (Constantinople, or today, Istanbul) became the capital of The Eastern Roman Empire with its Greek language, and culture intact that covered all of south eastern Europe, and into Minor Asia.

The lingua franca of the Eastern Roman Empire was Koine Greek with the Latin language used solely on official Roman documents. Since I have already raised the matter of literacy it might surprise many to know that in the Roman province of Palestine (Judaea and Galilee) literacy rates among the Jewish population was very high. Most of the Christian scriptures were written in the Greek language, despite the local Palestinian Jewish population's language being Aramaic. During the Middle Ages the lingua franca remained Koine Greek in the parts of Europe, Middle East and Northern Africa where the Byzantine Empire held hegemony. The Byzantine Empire was Orthodox Christian.

I'll make one comment on culture as I have enjoyed the vast differences in culture discoverable throughout Europe. When I arrived in Italy to begin my four years of post graduate work I had already picked up sufficient Italian to communicate with Italians...but was surprised to discover that Mussolini's attempts to unify Italy through his education system had failed to destroy Italy's rich regional culture, for I discovered that Italy remains a patchwork of regional languages that work alongside the Italian language. As an example on the Italian island of Sardinia there are three different languages that function alongside the Italian language.

The cultural heritage of Europe remains very much a fact of life...here I will cite the OPs reference to Celtic culture by reminding him that some 21 pct. of the people of Wales speak Welsh as a first language, as well as speaking the English language. In Welsh speaking areas of Wales courts of law hold their sessions in the Welsh language, and school children are taught in the Welsh language. There is also television and radio programming in the Welsh language.

 

[NotHardUp1]

On another level, I would posit the question: how can the strong and healthy religion of a people die out when the people themselves persist? In a Darwinian sense, if the culture is more fit, more apt, more meaningful, then how is it not preferred or retained among peoples who are NOT at gunpoint to convert? Who gives up the core of your being when you are not forced to? Where is the possibility that their religions were just as specious as the notional Catholics who don't observe their religion because they don't actually believe it?

The same notion comes to mind about Christianity and Mormonism. Both sects tenaciously held on through persecution and thrived afterward. Mormonism never received any state sanction, yet it prospered in part due to its underdog status, but also because of values within Mormonism.

Another parallel might be democratic reforms. In some lands, people rose up until they got self-determination, whereas in others, the cultures seems to have accepted "no" for an answer. Why?

 

[NotHardUp1]

Since I have already raised the matter of literacy it might surprise many to know that in the Roman province of Palestine (Judaea and Galilee) literacy rates among the Jewish population was very high.

That reminds me, Ambassador Ghobash was on The Open Mind and an interesting statistic came up. Supposedly 70% of the Muslim world is illiterate, and the resultant question is how that plays into the influence of extremists who control the message to those populations. It follows that there is an educated leadership of terrorists who are manipulating an uneducated followship.

As anyone can tell you, religion is not required for this sort of manipulation, and it has existed many times in the past sans religion.

 

[kallipolis]

That reminds me, Ambassador Ghobash was on The Open Mind and an interesting statistic came up. Supposedly 70% of the Muslim world is illiterate, and the resultant question is how that plays into the influence of extremists who control the message to those populations. It follows that there is an educated leadership of terrorists who are manipulating an uneducated followship.

As anyone can tell you, religion is not required for this sort of manipulation, and it has existed many times in the past sans religion.

I volunteer for a NGO here in Greece interviewing Iranian, and Afghan refugees, and despite making use of an interpreter speaking Farsi (the lingua franca of Iran, and much of Afghanistan) I discovered that many of the refugees are competent in the English language.

 

[kallipolis]

On another level, I would posit the question: how can the strong and healthy religion of a people die out when the people themselves persist? In a Darwinian sense, if the culture is more fit, more apt, more meaningful, then how is it not preferred or retained among peoples who are NOT at gunpoint to convert? Who gives up the core of your being when you are not forced to? Where is the possibility that their religions were just as specious as the notional Catholics who don't observe their religion because they don't actually believe it?

The same notion comes to mind about Christianity and Mormonism. Both sects tenaciously held on through persecution and thrived afterward. Mormonism never received any state sanction, yet it prospered in part due to its underdog status, but also because of values within Mormonism.

Another parallel might be democratic reforms. In some lands, people rose up until they got self-determination, whereas in others, the cultures seems to have accepted "no" for an answer. Why?

The Renaissance (the rebirth of Europe) was a product of 15th century Italy where Catholicism was the only religion that mattered. The effects of The Renaissance spread across Europe ensuring a revival in European cultures that continues to this day. Despite the growth of the European Union (New Rome) national languages, regional dialects, and regional cultural pursuits remain a valuable asset for each of the nations that are members of the EU.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Right. That raises the question of WHICH Muslims are illiterate? Is it in Africa, Afghanistan, or Indonesia? And HOW does it intersect extremism?

 

[kallipolis]

Right. That raises the question of WHICH Muslims are illiterate? Is it in Africa, Afghanistan, or Indonesia? And HOW does it intersect extremism?

All the Muslims that I have bedded most being from Iran, and Afghanistan have communicated with me in English, or Greek having been resident in Greece for some months they have been obliged to learn our language for their benefit. Over the past years I have been in relationship remaining monogamous.

Education levels in large cities throughout the Middle East are reasonable, with the English language high on the priority chart of pupils, and university students the result of the encroaching English language culture, and the remaining cultural influence of the British who had successfully influenced the local educated elites during their governance in Iraq, Palestine, Jordan. Television, and cinema, and music originating in English language countries has had an enormous impact on Asian education school, and university curricula.

 

[kallipolis]

Jasun thanks for your words, always a valuable contribution that challenges erroneous misconceptions..now I must leave for work.

 

[Benvolio]

All the Muslims that I have bedded most being from Iran, and Afghanistan have communicated with me in English, or Greek having been resident in Greece for some months they have been obliged to learn our language for their benefit. Over the past years I have been in relationship remaining monogamous.

Education levels in large cities throughout the Middle East are reasonable, with the English language high on the priority chart of pupils, and university students the result of the encroaching English language culture, and the remaining cultural influence of the British who had successfully influenced the local educated elites during their governance in Iraq, Palestine, Jordan. Television, and cinema, and music originating in English language countries has had an enormous impact on Asian education school, and university curricula.

English is the logocal and pragmatic choice as a second language as it has become the nearly universal second language, and is therefore the most useful.

 

[Telstra]

Greek Orthodox destroyed Greek Culture.
Lucky they still got their music culture ?

 

[Benvolio]

Greek Orthodox destroyed Greek Culture.
Lucky they still got their music culture ?

Have you wondered what made Greek and Roman cultures great? I think their religions with many gods with human imperfections prevented the development of an all powerful priesthood and a fundamentalist control of life and thought.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Your thoughts?

etc. and so on.

 

[mikey3000]

What I can contribute is my Canadian and Ukrainian heritage. Ukrainians are funny people in that they are very ethnocentric and desperately try to hold on to their very ancient culture. Even today in the western world, our heritage and religion is paramount to our culture. Traditional designs and ceremonies go back several thousand years to ancient Trypillia and are still adhered to today. Pagan rituals are still practiced by the youth of today. Christianity was brought to Ukraine in 988 AD by Vlodymyr Sviatoslavich the Great, with little impact on our traditions. Go to my in-laws house for Christmas and you'd think you stepped back in time a thousand years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhktZsLG0ig&feature=youtu.be

 

[Alistair]

Thanks guys. I'm at work for awhile today. I'll check out your responses tonight.

 

[Alistair]

"Today we find ourselves born into societies that have no band, clan, or tribal cohesion. Instead, at the micro-level, we have substituted the nuclear family, much smaller than a band and too small to comprise a self-sufficient functional unit. And at the macro-level, we have substituted the state and corporation, hierarchical and multi-tiered constructs much larger than a tribe, and too large to function as an integral unit.” - Dave Pollard

 

[NotHardUp1]

That is an odd conclusion, or perhaps better put, selective.

Modern urban gangs are most definitely tribes, yet what virtue is there in that? The tribe advocate must defend his assertion that tribalism is inherently positive or virtuous.