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The elephant in the corner of the room is wearing a Burkha...

They could learn a thing or two from the Amish.


That's true - we could all learn a thing or two from the Amish. I don't think I could ever be as forgiving as those wonderful people after those horrible murders. Their ways seem so strange to me, yet they seem to personify my idea of how religion should influence people's lives.
 
Really? What are you talking about Andreus? I am not allowed my opinion on the subject? Maybe you're the one that suppresses anyone that doesn't agree with YOU.

I am not a professional or have the credentials I am just asking questions and or voicing my opinions. I am allowed that aren't I? I DO have that freedom. Don't I? Or maybe it was OK for me to do that when we were kissing each other's asses?

no you are not a profesional, yet ai am a muslim, and you have been given real information and for some reason, you prefer to act as if it is not being given. Thats fine if that level of closed mind is what you aspire to.

and...

dont even try to go where you are trying to go with me elvin. You have no idea what this can turn into.

You have used my friendship to try to controll me over and over again, and it just isn't happening right now and you are really peeved about it.

you meander and bait... a true tactic of yours... and don't expect it to work with me and come out of it smelling nice and clean.

i have not once said that people can't say what they want, but that has to go hand in hand with my right to answer it.
 
good, now that that is out of the way perhaps we can get back on topic with a bit of input from the american muslim womens League...

No subject seems to receive more attention as an issue unique to Muslims than that of women’s dress. Muslims and non-Muslims alike dwell on this issue, using women’s appearances to categorize others in an effort to understand them. In some instances, the dress of the Muslim woman ends up meaning more to others than it does to the woman herself with often far-reaching political and social implications. Examining the reasons for such obsession is beyond the scope of this position paper, but deserves consideration nevertheless, as we ask ourselves why so many people are so preoccupied with the appearance of Muslim women.

Our purpose here is to at least develop a basic understanding of this issue from the point of view of the Islamic texts, that is, the Qur’an and then hadith. We are not interested in coming to conclusions that result in a set of rules on how to dress. This has been done in numerous books and articles written over the centuries, including many authored very recently. Rather, we seek to understand the spirit and focus of the original texts to get an overall sense of the message being conveyed. In general, the overriding principle that comes through is one of modesty for both men and women.

.....

Discussion
Without a doubt, God in His wisdom advises the believers to dress and behave in a way that elevates their status both in this life and the hereafter. Most Muslims do not view modest dress as an imposition meant to oppress either women or men. Indeed, many women who voluntarily wear hijab actually feel liberated; free from society’s rules about women’s looks, free from being slaves to fashion, free to reserve their beauty for their husbands and so on.

A more important question in this discussion is whether individuals, Muslim or non-Muslim, should be forced to dress in a certain way. Every society is entitled to establish minimum standards of dress (in the US, we do have limits as well, defining "indecent exposure" according to this society’s norms). How those standards are enforced and to what extent individuals are punished for violations is of extreme importance in those countries which strongly regulate the dress code.

When reviewing both Qur’an and hadith, there is no precedence for how to deal with such violations; the Prophet (pbuh) or his wives and companions simply reminded others to follow the guidelines. Not a single example of violence, imprisonment, humiliation or coercion can be found during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)that would imply that such practices today are consistent with his example.

The Qur’an does not spell out any punishment (hudud) for violations of a dress code. Also, in the verses outlined above, the Qur’an clearly addresses "the believing women" meaning Muslims, so that it is difficult to find an argument to justify the imposition of an "Islamic" dress code on non-Muslim women. Thus, by inference the decision to dress a certain way is left to the individual who will face the consequences for all actions in this life, to her benefit or detriment, as God sees fit.

The Qur’an also says "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). Those who choose to behave a certain way as a reflection of their belief in God and His message and thus accept the challenges therein are not the same as those who behave to satisfy other people or laws set in place. The freedom and ability to choose to do good make the reward that much greater.

Among many Muslims today, hijab is often equated with piety, both by those who cover their hair and those who do not. Unfortunately, too many assume that a woman who covers must naturally be more religious or conservative that one who does not. This generates expectations and pressure on Muslim women in hijab , whose behavior is held to different standards, perhaps undesired on the part of the woman. On the other hand, according to popular opinion, the Muslim woman who does not cover her hair (even if she is otherwise dressed modestly) has not quite arrived at the perceived goal of all righteous believing women. The scarf, an article of clothing, has sadly become a litmus test for a Muslim woman’s faith and devotion to God. Indeed, the importance which some Muslims have attached to hijab has made some sarcastically refer to it as the "Sixth Pillar" of Islam, on par with prayer, fasting, alms-giving, pilgrimage and bearing witness to the oneness of God.
While our faith is manifested in our deeds, only God can judge our piety and righteousness. The Prophet himself (pbuh) would not venture to say who, for certain, would reach Paradise. Such knowledge is with God alone such that the judgement of one person regarding another’s religiosity is totally irrelevant.

How Muslims dress is only one aspect of our identities. For many women, dressing conservatively and covering one’s hair are felt to be acts of faith. Therefore, discriminating against a woman for dressing a particular way violates her freedom to practice her religion, a fundamental right cherished here in the United States. The non-Muslim community, particularly the media, needs to get beyond its own narrow one-dimensional view of the conservative dress of the Muslim woman as a sign of oppression. It is a choice that American Muslim women make, perhaps not the same as that of other women, but equally valid. Ultimately, what really matters is the attitude, behavior and demeanor of the person in question.
A Source of Division?
Among Muslims, the division and intolerance expressed regarding women’s dress is one factor that impedes our growth and development as a meaningful presence in the world today. All Muslims struggle with matters of faith, identity, and community. With the pressing issues facing the Ummah today such as poverty, illiteracy, violence, warfare and other ills, we must ask ourselves if we want to be consumed and paralyzed by the issue of women’s dress. Placing the burden primarily on women without calling for the accountability of men to control themselves and their sexual appetites is in violation of the spirit of the Qur’an which is about self-control and self-restraint.
In addition, the extremely negative attitudes which consider women who do not cover as somehow unchaste are most egregious and unjustifiable. Wrongful accusations against a woman’s honor are met unequivocally with severe consequences as mentioned in the Qur’an (24:4-20).
Only together, through cooperation, tolerance and forbearance, as exemplified by the Prophet (pbuh) can Muslims overcome the obstacles to success in this life and the hereafter that often are expressed in our attitudes towards women.
 
How Muslims dress is only one aspect of our identities. For many women, dressing conservatively and covering one’s hair are felt to be acts of faith. Therefore, discriminating against a woman for dressing a particular way violates her freedom to practice her religion, a fundamental right cherished here in the United States. The non-Muslim community, particularly the media, needs to get beyond its own narrow one-dimensional view of the conservative dress of the Muslim woman as a sign of oppression. It is a choice that American Muslim women make, perhaps not the same as that of other women, but equally valid. Ultimately, what really matters is the attitude, behavior and demeanor of the person in question.

There is no question that many Muslim women choose to dress the way they do, but the world still views that as a sign of oppression. They don't think the women are actually choosing to dress that way.
 
There is no question that many Muslim women choose to dress the way they do, but the world still views that as a sign of oppression. They don't think the women are actually choosing to dress that way.

yupp

and thats why these discussions are important

if people really read and see what is being said by the people they pretend to worry so much about, they will realize that they would actually prefer to not have the "help"

thanks MP :kiss:
 
for god's sake...is anyone seriously telling me that women in saudi arabia, afghanistan, iran, the sudan, somalia, yemen are "choosing" to remain veiled and if they don't nothing would happen to them? we're supposed to take this argument seriously?
 
for god's sake...is anyone seriously telling me that women in saudi arabia, afghanistan, iran, the sudan, somalia, yemen are "choosing" to remain veiled and if they don't nothing would happen to them? we're supposed to take this argument seriously?

what information do you have to the contrary?

the afghani women have the freedom to choose and they dont make any changes

god knows that the women in america have that freedoma nd they make the same choices

you can read it in their own words

will you trust YOUR assumptions or THEIR beliefs?

do they not have the right to practice theri faith as they see fit? or is that only if as they see fit coresponds to what you see fit?
 
As a woman, I can't imagine *wanting* to wear such covered clothing, under any circumstances religion or no religion. Frankly I don't think these women have much of any ability to change the status quo in their male dominated socities.

I only have anctedotal thoughts, but I think part of the problem is the "too many men, too few women" syndrome - There's a sociology theory out there that there is a very high rate of female subordination in cultures where there is an imbalance of the 2 sexes.
I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but this article here has a paragraph on the topic under female subordination.

This is my two-cents only, fwiw, and I'm definitely just writing this as an observer of the conversation in this thread, and not wearing any mod hat.
 
I dug this up because it shows a more accurate picture of who and where women of cover catch the most hell from in our modern society.

a muslim friend of mine at JUb that you all know and love had a bad experience ...

I'll let the post and thread speak for itself.

heres the link and a copy of his first post in the thread...

http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112139

jwest said:
yesterday i was walking with a muslim girl friend of mine who wears a hijab, the scarf, and out of nowhere this guy comes out and starts saying all kinds of offensive remarks (surprise!) and decides to be a real ass, grabs her hijab, and run off...
so, i ran after him, tackled him, and in no way harmed him seariously...lucky for me, a police man was at the corner, and who does he think is at fault? me...sure, he didnt see the whole thing, just me running into the guy, but he couldve at least gotten the complete story before deciding to take me in...
at the station i got everything cleared up, my friend was ok, and the shitbag was was taken in
its just sad to see that there are still things like this happening so casually
 
As a woman, I can't imagine *wanting* to wear such covered clothing, under any circumstances religion or no religion. Frankly I don't think these women have much of any ability to change the status quo in their male dominated socities.

I only have anctedotal thoughts, but I think part of the problem is the "too many men, too few women" syndrome - There's a sociology theory out there that there is a very high rate of female subordination in cultures where there is an imbalance of the 2 sexes.
I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for but this article here has a paragraph on the topic under female subordination.

This is my two-cents only, fwiw, and I'm definitely just writing this as an observer of the conversation in this thread, and not wearing any mod hat.

I dont understand it either if you want the truth to be told, Zee...

I would not do it, but i as a muslim man have chosen to forego covering my head since I returned to america, so that is a reflection of my choices and beliefs.

its no accident that the gay rights movement within islam is strongly tied to the womens rights movement, and what we, the gay men have found, is that they want the cover...

its a unique part of the faith that they control

its an odd and unexpected aspect of their beliefs.

i have to support their wishes and back off from the movement to change things when they express them so succinctly though.
 
andreus, don't get mad cause i don't wanna go back to the nastiness of the old days unless it's absolutely necessary but u telling me that all the anectodal (i probably didn't spell that right) evidence outta afghanistan about women who don't wear their burka being beaten by the resurgent taliban is false? you telling me that feminist leaders aren't being beaten and raped and worse?? i guess you're towing the bush administration line that everything is a-ok in afghanistan. yes, i'm aware that some women in more westernized countries like qatar choose to wear their burka...i'm not talking about them. they do have a choice and many in qatar choose not to wear them as well. i'm talking about the above mentioned countries like afghanistan. your take seems to be if it's only a few million of them that are oppressed, well then what the hell!
 
james

one of the most respected and revered people in all of Islam is Dr Hanan Ashrawi.

she is a muslim woman and not one of cover. It is a choice she fights against, but it is a reality for her that she is in the minority on this choice.

She is a litteral force to be reckoned with within Islam and she makes her choices openly and accepts the choices of her sisters.





now

you can either believe the information being given to you about what muslims really think, want, and believe, or you can try to force your own opinion on them by refusing to see that you are just offbase on this issue.

in the end, you will be the one who believes incorrectly if you refuse to see that this is their issue to choose, and not yours or mine.

There are six current nations that enforce Sharia law and they are by and large Pariahs even amongst the Muslim nations.

This is just the truth and you can choose to not believe them, but you will be living with an untrue and warped assessment of reality if you choose that path.
 
Maybe if there are other Muslims here they can give us their opinions and their takes...You know, to get fresh ideas on the subject....

coy and cute :rolleyes:

most are avoiding JUb right now because its ramadan and if they tell a lie, have an impure thought, or assasinate a character they will have to feed the poor for a day

of course, If you don't like the post of Jwest's that I supplied, I can find others from rafik or candleboy that may help...
 
Not being coy and cute....Just trying to get a different perspective...Nothing to do with YOU....It's not all about you Andreus....

lol

of course it is :p

the universe is a great heaving mass swirling around the mote in god's eye named Andreus

truthfully?

there are very few except Rafik and jwest that post regularly because of threads like this. They are always driven away because they are dumbstruck by non muslims who insist that they know more about islam than they do.

and that is not what JUb is suposed to be about.
 
you know what it boils down to is that i feel sorry for anyone who's a prisoner of any faith that wraps up so much of your individuality in it...i honestly don't know if the other thread in hot topics about how those mulsims who masturbate during ramadan are to be punished is true but things similiar to that in the muslim and other oppressive religions should make any thinking person ill. call me what you will but any religion that makes the religious right in the U.S. look sensible by comparison is in trouble. i just don't understand your unwillingness to admit that the debate in the muslim world is led by extremists...not only that but that they've basically silenced many moderates by using the threat of violence. you bring up dr. hanan...how many bodyguards does she travel with? has she been to iran, somalia, sudan, afghanistan, iraq or pakistan lately?
 
Andreus?\
Would you explain why you chose Dr Ashrawi to illustrate an Islamic woman ("and not one of cover")..when she is described as a Palestinian Anglican scholar whose mother was Lebanese Christian and who attended a Quaker School?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
She does not seem like a good illustration for your arguement..
 
I took a class on the globalization of feminism last year. Check out Chilla Bulbeck's Re-Orienting Western Feminism for more on this topic. She has a whole section on the veiling of women. A very brief summary:

-Though westerners tend to see it as oppression, the veil is an equalizing force. Poor women, ugly women, rich women, beautiful women....they are all the same under a veil.

Think of the gay community - would you be against something that let you be a person and not a 28-inch wasted twink? (Considering most of us aren't)

I personally am on the fence with the issue, but it is interesting to get the other side. She also offers the other side of female circumcision. Very interesting to look at our indoctrinated values from another perspective.
 
She also offers the other side of female circumcision. Very interesting to look at our indoctrinated values from another perspective.

Oh my god. :eek: :eek: I think that female circumcision is WRONG WRONG WRONG and the only women who would willingly submit to it have be totally brainwashed. Listen to Revlon model Waris speak on it. My god, it makes my squirm and tighten my legs together just thinking about female circumcision. It is WRONG. Any doctor in the united states who does it should have license yanked, as far as I'm concerned.
 
^^hell yeah i'd be against it...how is a burka supposed to equalize things? think about what you're saying gator...it's a good thing so ugly women don't feel ugly!!!?? what a reason to oppress a whole group...

and andreus, i forgot about the whole female circumsion thing...something that is done to keep women from enjoying sex so they don't stray...jesus! you are in such denial about what's going on over there...
 
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