The expanding Israel-Hamas war

[LoveMyPeppermill]

AOC's right, obviously, that innocent Palestinian children shouldn't have to pay for Hamas's brutality, but what's the IDF supposed to do when Hamas hides its murderous gunmen and weapons, and the missiles they've been shooting at Israel for 17 years, amidst those children and their families?

I hope those brutal vids, and pics of Hamas trucks blocking the road for people to escape from Gaza City to the south, will finally convince the lefties who've been reluctant to believe it that yes, Hamas does park its missiles and weapons at and around schools and hospitals and does use innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields. Always has.

(And yeah, I saw that article from The Onion that Fab posted.)

Hamas's atrocities, towards their own people as well as toward Israelis, are just the sort of thing Golda Meir was talking about when she lamented, "They hate us more than they love their own children."

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

And yet Netanyahu telling civilians to leave doesn't come with him letting them go anywhere.

What's the IDF supposed to do, open the border so that more Hamas terrorists can sneak out with weapons amidst the crush of fleeing civilians?

Egypt won't let Gazan civilians escape into their territory, either; if Egypt doesn't think that's safe, that should tell us something.

I'd love to see the UN or some country (maybe even the US) send a few large ships to hold Gazan refugees for a couple of months. But I expect that nobody trusts Hamas not to try to sink those ships and attempt to pin it on Israel.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Note, by the way, that I am making a distinction between the IDF (and Israel) and Bibi and his government. There are fascist nutcases in his government who'd be happy to see every Gazan civilian die, and Bibi would sacrifice anyone and everyone (except, maybe, his wife) to save his own ass.

I'm convinced that, when this war is over if not before, it's going to come out that Bibi and a few others in his cabinet knew this Hamas attack was coming and allowed it.

 

[TX-Beau]

You know, you have p

What's the IDF supposed to do, open the border so that more Hamas terrorists can sneak out with weapons amidst the crush of fleeing civilians?

Egypt won't let Gazan civilians escape into their territory, either; if Egypt doesn't think that's safe, that should tell us something.

I'd love to see the UN or some country (maybe even the US) send a few large ships to hold Gazan refugees for a couple of months. But I expect that nobody trusts Hamas not to try to sink those ships and attempt to pin it on Israel.

On the one hand, you say that the Palestinians should leave, and on the other you say, that Israel can let no one leave.

Don't pretend that Netanyahu's excuse is anything but.

I think the IDF should have a government that not mired in hypocrisy.

Who pays? People who have no say, on both sides of the border, who is guilty. leaders on BOTH sides of the border.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

On the one hand, you say that the Palestinians should leave, and on the other you say, that Israel can let no one leave.

They should leave Gaza City, where the IDF is planning its main operations, and go to the south end of the strip, as the IDF said they civilians should do and Hamas was actively trying to prevent them from doing.
Sorry, I though you'd been paying more attention to the details of the conflict.

I think the IDF should have a government that not mired in hypocrisy.

So does the IDF. That's why so many of them were demonstrating against Bibi in the weeks before this started and were even threatening not to fight if Bibi went through with his plan to co-opt the courts.

If the IDF could have forced another election to get rid of Bibi, I have no doubt they would have. And there probably will be an election after there's a ceasefire, and Bibi will be toast. He obviously calculated that Israelis would rally around the flag and him, but Israelis are blaming Bibi for this. He will be extremely lucky if he gets off as easily as Golda did after the 1973 Yom Kippur war.

 

[TX-Beau]

Note, by the way, that I am making a distinction between the IDF (and Israel) and Bibi and his government. There are fascist nutcases in his government who'd be happy to see every Gazan civilian die, and Bibi would sacrifice anyone and everyone (except, maybe, his wife) to save his own ass.

I'm convinced that, when this war is over if not before, it's going to come out that Bibi and a few others in his cabinet knew this Hamas attack was coming and allowed it.

At this point that is a pointless distinction - they elected him. Israeli policy and Bibi in particular are equally to blame. Whether Bibi and his ilk go down for this, they are not the first, and they will not be the last.

Hamas is a barbarity, that did this specifically because they knew Israel would do exactly what they wanted Israel to do. No pone wins in this by accommodating a terrorist.

So many times people, mistake violence for strength, we did the same after 9-11 and what did we get for it, tens of thousands dead, being stampeded into a war over a lie, and a quagmire that cost trillions and yet more innocent lives - and for what? Nothing. The people who started it, they are still there. Still doing the same shit.

 

[TX-Beau]

They should leave Gaza City, where the IDF is planning its main operations, and go to the south end of the strip, as the IDF said they civilians should do and Hamas was actively trying to prevent them from doing.
Sorry, I though you'd been paying more attention to the details of the conflict.




So does the IDF. That's why so many of them were demonstrating against Bibi in the weeks before this started and were even threatening not to fight if Bibi went through with his plan to co-opt the courts.

If the IDF could have forced another election to get rid of Bibi, I have no doubt they would have. And there probably will be an election after there's a ceasefire, and Bibi will be toast. He obviously calculated that Israelis would rally around the flag and him, but Israelis are blaming Bibi for this. He will be extremely lucky if he gets off as easily as Golda did after the 1973 Yom Kippur war.

We'll see won't we. So far, it looks entirely familiar.

 

[KaraBulut]

...If the IDF could have forced another election to get rid of Bibi, I have no doubt they would have. And there probably will be an election after there's a ceasefire, and Bibi will be toast. He obviously calculated that Israelis would rally around the flag and him, but Israelis are blaming Bibi for this. He will be extremely lucky if he gets off as easily as Golda did after the 1973 Yom Kippur war.

Underlying this is something that isn't being talked about: Netanyahou's base is the exponentially increasing population of ultraorthodox fundamentalist sects of Judaism in Israel. The ultraorthodox don't serve in the military but they do vote and their bloc of voters have gained societal exemptions, including exemption from military service, for ultraorthodox males who are in "religious study". The exemption from military service means that the Israeli military services, the IDF, is a more secular, more educated, more liberal group of Israelis.

The coalition that brought Netanyahou to power, again, in spite of his ethics problems and his previous troubled years as PM, is also behind a lot of the oppressive policies toward Palestinians and the increase in Jewish settlements on previously Palestinian land.

The increasing religious fanaticism on in both the Israeli population and in places like Iran that fund the anti-Israel movements are two sides of the same coin. The violence and the killing in the name of religion is just going to create more fundamentalists and fanatics.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

My hope is that the last six to eight months have finally awakened enough disengaged secular voters in Israel, and that the past two weeks have finally turned enough security-first voters off Bibi and Likud, to get that godawful coalition out at the next election. As you know, most secular Israelis furiously resent the privileges that the ultra-Orthodox have been getting.

Here's hoping ...

(Just occurs to me that if the ultra-Orthodox do have to serve in the military, they will weaponize their own incompetence.)

 

[KaraBulut]

My hope is that the last six to eight months have finally awakened enough disengaged secular voters in Israel, and that the past two weeks have finally turned enough security-first voters off Bibi and Likud, to get that godawful coalition out at the next election. As you know, most secular Israelis furiously resent the privileges that the ultra-Orthodox have been getting.

It's a whole other topic but the battles between secular Jews and the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem has been going on for a while. I laugh every time I hear someone tout Israel's tolerance of women, LGBT people and religious minorities because they've seen the liberal cities on the west coast. They must have never been to Jerusalem.

Sadly, the birth rate among secular Jews is a fraction of the birth rate of the orthodox Jews, so demographic trends favor the right-leaning orthodox over the left-leaning secular Jews.

If you want to read some of the anti-Netanhayu editorials, Haaretz has been tearing Netanhayu a new one for quite a while. They have been taking him to task for being too obsessed with saving his own ass by weakening the judiciary to notice that Hamas was planning a pogrom. They also called out his failed triangulation strategy to enable Hamas in order to weaken the PLO. They've been equally merciless on his kowtowing to the fundamentalists in order to stay in power. Sound familiar... Trump *cough*?

(Just occurs to me that if the ultra-Orthodox do have to serve in the military, they will weaponize their own incompetence.)

There are many things that I don't understand about the middle eastern mind. Oddly enough, there are Muslims who serve in the IDF and who are integrated into Israel society. But the Heredi (ultraorthodox) are given exemptions from military service.

The Christians are also exempted which is a shame because the different sects of Christianity in Israel are constantly fighting each other. After seeing Christian monks from different branches of Christianity get into a fistfight on a regular basis, it's hard to have hope that any of these mental-as-anything people living in Israel and Palestine are ever going to stop finding reasons to fight and kill each other.

 

[rareboy]

At least the US has forced Israel to turn the water back on and negotiated with Egypt to open up Rafah.

This madness will never end until religion is dead.

And even then.

 

[TX-Beau]

This madness goes back to the Bible.

 

[rareboy]

Death toll from Israeli strikes on Gaza Strip rises to 2,670, some 9,600 others injured - Palestinian Health Ministry.

Some 1,400 people have been killed in Israel in Hamas attacks, about 3,500 injured - Israeli Health Ministry.

Putin and Khameini are rubbing their hand with glee.

 

[Dargelos]

"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transfering money to Hamas"
What kind of person would say a thing like that?
Mr Netanyahu in 2019. Do you still stand by your words, sir?

 

[KaraBulut]

"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transfering money to Hamas"
What kind of person would say a thing like that?
Mr Netanyahu in 2019. Do you still stand by your words, sir?

And my, how times have changed:

Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us. We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Meier

 

[johaninsc]

 

[rareboy]

The IDF targeting every Hama leader and base of operations.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713835401675239506

 

[newspaper_love]

Hamas knew exactly what would happen when they pissed off Israel. It's like a turkey voting for Xmas..

 

[rareboy]

You have to think that at least the sponsors of this side war knew....rrrZZZia and Iran would have known that Israel would not only prevail, they would be relentless and ruthless now in wiping out a whole new generation of Hamas and Hezbollah leadership and forces.

Whether Hamas was somehow convinced by the sponsors that the timing was perfect for them to successfully invade and hold territory is impossible to tell....but arrogance and ego are terrible qualities for terrorist armed forces.

I can't imagine a moment when somebody said "Yes...this time it will be different. This time we will reach TelAviv and seize the land back".

 

[TX-Beau]

The Palestinian cause was being sidelined and Hamas knew Israel would do exactly what they wanted Israel to do in order to piss off the Arabs and create a new generation of terrorists.

If Israel continues down this path, Hamas will meet its strategic objective. I doubt that the people who planned this are in Gaza at all, and I don't trust anything Bibi has to say. Might as well trust Toad.