The expanding Israel-Hamas war

[KaraBulut]

...For the Jews living in Israel it’s their misfortune to live in a democracy, had they been living in an autocracy their personal responsibility would not be an issue but in a democracy it certainly is and come the next election should the current government be reelected every Jew in Israel will have innocent blood on their hands.

Thomas Friedman penned an editorial where he said that Israel is the bountiful democratic country that Iran's middle class wants to be; and Iran is the theocratic country that Israel's secular community fears Israel is on its way to becoming.

Israel has a far right orthodox group of politicians in key cabinet positions. Israel's government is led by a narcissist sociopath who will do anything to stay in power.

The only way out is for the secular voters in Israel to throw out the government currently in power. That's unlikely to happen because the events of Oct 7th and the genocidal actions of Netayahu have made him even more popular than he was before Oct 7th and the slaughter in Gaza.

 

[rareboy]

This is on all the Israeilis now.

They can't claim they don't know what they are doing. And I don't really think the so called 'secular' voters care that much about Israel's genocide.

Or about being governed by a narcissist sociopath.

The parallels between the Israeilis and the US americans are profound.

 

[rareboy]

Do you beleive it now?

 

[KaraBulut]

Meanwhile, the Israeli version of KKKaroline lies and tries to claim that it is Hamas that is starving the people of Gaza. Remember the good old days when we mocked propagandists like Baghdad Bob when they told blatant lies?

Meanwhile, Peter Beinart reminds us that the ICC indicted Netayahu for war crimes, including starving the people of Gaza, 8 months ago, yet the US has continue to allow Israel to commit more war crimes without intervention.

Note that Scott Jennings parrots the Israel talking points. Jennings is auditioning to run for McConnell's Senate seat from Kentucky.

 

[rareboy]

What kind of evil is the US ans Britain supporting in the middle east?

What are the limits?

Where are the churches, the leaders, the people?

This is literally no different than the world standing by in the holocaust except now there is direct and constant footage of this evil being broadcast to all of us.

Canada is committing to recognize the Palestinian state at the UN....further isolating the few countries who do not. But even we are standing by helpless as Israel, totally propped up by US weapons, continues every day to destroy the innocent.


And there is no accountability.

 

[rareboy]

At least we are on record....

 

[Norri]

What kind of evil is the US ans Britain supporting in the middle east?

What are the limits?

Where are the churches, the leaders, the people?

This is literally no different than the world standing by in the holocaust except now there is direct and constant footage of this evil being broadcast to all of us.

Canada is committing to recognize the Palestinian state at the UN....further isolating the few countries who do not. But even we are standing by helpless as Israel, totally propped up by US weapons, continues every day to destroy the innocent.


And there is no accountability.

When you ask ‘what are the limits’ intentionally or not the question is directed at Donald J Trump. India and Pakistan have a squabble Trump scolds them, Thailand and Cambodia have a tiff Trump chimes in this time with tariff threats, Putin uncooperative timeline shortened but Israel skates.
Not really helping that Nobel Peace Prize dream. If he wanted to he could really matter here and I don’t see any political risk shooting starving people looking for food not popular. An easy be the hero opportunity presents itself and Trump is unusually quiet.


In the NPR piece referenced above it was reported that the injuries to the shooting victims varied each day meaning one day it was leg wounds the next the stomach the next the groin but a pattern each day. If such things are happening it speaks volumes about what those Israeli soldier citizens think about the poor souls of Gaza. ( kinda matches what they think of West Bank Palestinians) and to the extent you believe that story or not probably is a good indicator of your views on Gaza.

 

[Dargelos]

I would prefer not to believe that anyone could sink so low as to murder hungry children for sport. But the story comes from trustworthy sources and the IDF have enough form for it. Choosing not to believe because reality is too painful will not make reality go away.

 

[KaraBulut]

I would prefer not to believe that anyone could sink so low as to murder hungry children for sport. But the story comes from trustworthy sources and the IDF have enough form for it. Choosing not to believe because reality is too painful will not make reality go away.

There's a Golda Mier quote that now has a has a terrible resonance for the modern times...

We can forgive [the Arabs] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [the Arabs] when they love their children more than they hate us...

The outcome of all of this is that Israel will have even fewer friends in the world and their moral position that might have once justified murdering children will never be an accepted excuse ever again.

There's no one in the right. There's just innocent people who are collateral damage in the middle of two religious extremist groups who are led by morally bankrupt politicians.

 

[Norri]

There's a Golda Mier quote that now has a has a terrible resonance for the modern times...



The outcome of all of this is that Israel will have even fewer friends in the world and their moral position that might have once justified murdering children will never be an accepted excuse ever again.

Israel will probably have fewer friends in their neighborhood but in the wider world I’m not so sure. The world changed a bit when Russia invaded the Ukraine and, outside of the west, most just looked the other way and then business as usual but with discounted oil. We may be moving into a time when morality doesn’t have the juice to influence people the way it once did.

If China invaded Taiwan tomorrow half of the world be silent, granted the starving of people is on another level and Israel surely is feeling the pressure but as long as they are economically successful I think they will have friends.

 

[rareboy]

I think that Israel has squandered the goodwill and support of many European countries and even allies like Canada.

We just can't see unqualified support for their nation building any more.

It is one of the reasons why Canada will support a Palestinian statehood at the UN after all the years.

 

[KaraBulut]

Twenty years ago, many mental health experts were warning that soldiers returning from the War on Terror would have long-term mental health issues. Congress didn't listen and now the US deals with about 18 veteran suicides per day. The US also has issues with militia groups like the Proud Boys that have a large number of Iraqi war veterans.

And now Israel is finding out that sending soldiers to Gaza to commit atrocities has a price:

7 Israeli soldiers died by suicide in July. PTSD veterans are trying to stop the next one

'We Have One Goal: Stop the Next Suicide': A Surge in Soldier Suicides Has Driven Longtime PTSD Survivors to Camp Outside the Defense Ministry's Rehabilitation Department, Demanding Urgent Reform. Calling on the Public to Join Them, They Cry: 'Our Brothers Are Taking Their Own Lives'

www.haaretz.com

Israeli HMOs reveal huge surge in PTSD diagnoses since October 7

Data From Maccabi, Leumit and Meuhedet, Which Together Insure About 5 Million Israelis, Show an Increase of Approximately 100 Percent in the Number of PTSD Diagnoses Among Those Aged 18 and Over. Mental Health NGO ERAN Says It Received More Than 13,000 Calls During the War With Iran

www.haaretz.com

Israel has seen a sharp rise in post-traumatic stress disorder diagnoses among adults, with the number of cases nearly doubling over the past two years, according to data from the Maccabi, Leumit and Meuhedet health maintenance organizations. As these HMOs insure more than five million Israelis, their findings offer a reliable snapshot of the national mental health situation.

'If we don't treat PTSD now, we're dooming IDF war vets to a life of domestic violence'

Social Worker Dr. Daniela Shebar-Shapira Talks About the Close Connection Between the Gaza War and Domestic Violence: 'The Boys Come Home, and Their Mothers Are Genuinely Afraid of Them'

www.haaretz.com

'If We Don't Treat Their PTSD Now, We're Dooming Israeli War Veterans to a Life of Domestic Violence'

Social worker Dr. Daniela Shebar-Shapira talks about the close connection between the Gaza war and domestic violence: 'The boys come home, and their mothers are genuinely afraid of them'

 

[rareboy]

Wars make monsters out of ordinary men and then they want them to be ordinary after.

 

[Norri]

Twenty years ago, many mental health experts were warning that soldiers returning from the War on Terror would have long-term mental health issues. Congress didn't listen and now the US deals with about 18 veteran suicides per day. The US also has issues with militia groups like the Proud Boys that have a large number of Iraqi war veterans.

And now Israel is finding out that sending soldiers to Gaza to commit atrocities has a price:

7 Israeli soldiers died by suicide in July. PTSD veterans are trying to stop the next one

'We Have One Goal: Stop the Next Suicide': A Surge in Soldier Suicides Has Driven Longtime PTSD Survivors to Camp Outside the Defense Ministry's Rehabilitation Department, Demanding Urgent Reform. Calling on the Public to Join Them, They Cry: 'Our Brothers Are Taking Their Own Lives'

www.haaretz.com

View attachment 3202230

Israeli HMOs reveal huge surge in PTSD diagnoses since October 7

Data From Maccabi, Leumit and Meuhedet, Which Together Insure About 5 Million Israelis, Show an Increase of Approximately 100 Percent in the Number of PTSD Diagnoses Among Those Aged 18 and Over. Mental Health NGO ERAN Says It Received More Than 13,000 Calls During the War With Iran

www.haaretz.com

'If we don't treat PTSD now, we're dooming IDF war vets to a life of domestic violence'

Social Worker Dr. Daniela Shebar-Shapira Talks About the Close Connection Between the Gaza War and Domestic Violence: 'The Boys Come Home, and Their Mothers Are Genuinely Afraid of Them'

www.haaretz.com

If Netanyahu is serious about reoccupying Gaza for the long term then the psychological pressure on Israeli soldiers is only going to increase. This isn’t a peace keeping mission it’s an occupation and training Israeli reservists to do a job they don’t want to do will create tension and that tension will only increase as the issue of exactly who will be policing Gaza comes to the fore.

Religious Jews appear to be leading the charge here and many of them want Gaza to be depopulated so settlers can move in so the irony of the religious leading the charge while clinging on to their religious military exemption will not be lost on secular Jews. This issue has already bubbled up and Netanyahu’s religious partners in government have made clear that if he withdraws from Gaza his government will fall and if he gets rid of the religious exemption his government falls.

If secular Israelis don’t want to police Gaza this is the hill they should be willing to die on.

 

[rareboy]

So last night we started watching John Oliver and I finally just couldn't.

I follow this horror every day and even though his intentions were good...he is preaching to a congregation that isn't in the mood to hear and/or is totally powerless to stop the daily war crimes perpetrated by Israel.

I ended up ugly crying and not being able to listen to him try to mansplain to Americans what they should and likely already do know.

They are funding and supporting a genocide.

Pure and simple.

There is no coming back from this. Ever. To the end of my days I only know that I and millions of others were unable to stop state slaughter when my entire early adulthood was spent teching me that we could.

 

[Dargelos]

Only following orders did not wash at Nuremberg and it will not wash today. Are we supposed to feel sorry for people who have been taking part in war crimes?

 

[KaraBulut]

Only following orders did not wash at Nuremberg and it will not wash today. Are we supposed to feel sorry for people who have been taking part in war crimes?

When I was in the middle east, I used to hear people talking about what Israel did in 1947... or 1967... or 1973... Many of those countries still have millions of Palestinian refugees from those wars living in their countries.

Coming from America, where historically Israel could do no wrong, it was a completely different perspective from the history that I had been fed from school and the American media. The news reports of starving children that we're seeing this month are what the "Arab street" has been seeing for weeks. I can only imagine how their hatred of Israel is boiling over.

I never underestimate how long middle eastern people hold grudges.

Israel's plan is to force 2 million Palestinians into the southern part of Gaza and they will claim northern Gaza for Israeli settlements. That will create yet another refugee crisis. And more anti-Israeli sentiment.

If you think that the Syrian refugee crisis in Europe has skewed EU politics to the right, wait until millions of Palestinians try to flee to Eqypt or Iran or Saudi Arabia or Turkey. These countries already hate Israel and it's just going to get messier from here.

I've never heard so many Americans expressing anti-Israeli sentiment. And yes, I'm hearing it described as "war crimes" for the first time. Any sympathy that Israel received over October7th and the hostage situation has been squandered by the events since.

 

[rareboy]

I certainly use the term everywhere now...War Crimes. Genocide.

I see it with my own eyes.

 

[KaraBulut]

A view from a native Gazan who is not a fan of Hamas:

Hamas Wants Gaza to Starve

Starvation only helps Hamas end the war in a way that advances its aims.

www.theatlantic.com

...Hamas actually wants a famine in Gaza. Producing mass death from hunger is the group’s final play, its last hope for ending the war in a way that advances its goals. Hamas has benefited from Israel’s decision to use food as a lever against the terror group, because the catastrophic conditions for civilians have generated an international outcry, which is worsening Israel’s global standing and forcing it to reverse course...

Many Arab states have been reluctant to call out Hamas publicly, even though they do so privately on a regular basis, for fear of upsetting their own populations. But now they have recognized the importance of openly and transparently calling for Hamas to give up control of Gaza and disarm. Both Israel and the international community should capitalize on this shift, to isolate the terrorist organization and give hope for a better trajectory for Gaza’s future.

If Hamas believes that the suffering of Gazans bolsters its cause, Israeli decision makers should take that to heart. They should abandon their misguided and inhumane policies and cease their efforts to pressure the population as a means of pressuring the terror group. The best way to undermine Hamas’s position is to instead flood Gaza with food, and to alleviate the suffering of its people.

He goes further to say that Gaza under the IDF is going to look much like America in Iraq. Taking control will be easy. Keeping control will be a nightmare.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

I think that Israel has squandered the goodwill and support of many European countries and even allies like Canada.

We just can't see unqualified support for their nation building any more.

It is one of the reasons why Canada will support a Palestinian statehood at the UN after all the years.

I'm not so sure about Europe, I had a Jewish history teacher in secondary school (who tried hard to be a-political, as did our other teachers, which I find commendable, but who was clearly quite left wing), and she said that when the chips were doen, The Netherlands would always support Israël and the U.S. in the 90's, an she hasn't been wrong yet once.

Although The Netherlands had many Jews, the main political parties we used to have in themselves were split on the matter, as The Netherlands had been occupied in WW II.

But in practice, support for Palestine never gets far here. Lacking the military force or the will to intervene, I cannot see it going far and I very much doubt it will be very different in other European countries.

Not endorsing the state Israël, doesn't mean supporting Palestine yet by any stretch of the imagination.

We have a lot of loud (fairly small) protests, some manhandlings and some vandalisme, but we've had that before, and it's never changed anything, plus that many Europeans are sick to their skulls of Islamic terrorism and are not inclined to support anything remotely like it, unless for some duplicitous undercover operations.

Expect no sympathy for Hamas.