The Extreme Left

[Andreus]

First of all, Jkirk3000, you need to learn about the history of Nazi Germany. Most Americans, and many Europeans also, simply think of the concentration camps and gas chambers created by the Nazis. As a matter of fact, that came at the very end. The comparison of the United States to Nazi Germany and the rise of the Third Reich is that Hitler made illegal situations and made them legal, just as Bush has done. Hitler broke every law in the book and convinced the Germans that what he had done was not only morally correct but would also protect them from terror (he took away their civil rights). Ring a bell!?! The Patriot Act which the US Congress passed without even reading it to justify proctecting all Americans from terrorists. Gradually, Hitler and The Third Reich erroded nearly all of the rights of the Germans as is being done in the United States. Bush and his cronies preach moral values, but he and his administration are the most immoral group to ever inhabit the White House. You need to read up on your history and take a read of the Patriot Act (you would be shocked at what it contains). And by the way, the United States government is rapidly approaching Fascism if not already there in many theoretical ways (and before you comment, Jkirk3000, carefully read the definition of Fascism). The United States pre-emptively attacked Iraq and destroyed the country and its peoples just for oil and nothing else; Bush has done nothing, and I repeat nothing, to advance the peace of the Middle East, and the US's invasion of the Middle East has killed the possibilty of any peace-keeping mission there, Minister of State Rice's journey to the Middle East will be in vain, the entire world dislikes the United States and many even refer to Bush as a "benevolent dictator" of sorts, and the list goes on and on and on.....

american memory is selective, and the bush christianofascist movement is gaining swiftly in america due to apathy for the value of life in america, but no one is fooled globaly.

Americans are also being lied to about that. I don't think they get just how much of a threat to global peace they are considered, and that is more dangerous to their national security than all of the terrorist networks combined.

American prestige has been squandered as of late and( when Iran can thumb its nose at the U.S. and no one in the international community is suprised ) that means that eventually the global economy will drift from it as well.

the last great depression of the 30's will be a picnic compared to this thing brewing on the horizon.

sad really

 

[evanrick]

Exactly how is the President Bush turning the US into Nazi Germany?

He's been funding groups that discriminate such as Churches, perpetuate anti-gay policy, appointing people with a fundamental agenda.

Have there been concentration camps set up for politicians opposed to his policies?

There are ex-gay camps. Democrats have fled Texas.

Have elections been suspended?

In many ways they have been by gerrymandering.

Has congress been dissolved?

Yes, its a giant rubber stamp.

Do you see army soldiers patroling your street?

Yes, the Mexican border.

Has the US invaded its neighbors?

140 Countries and counting, dont forget Iraq.

Have non-Evangelicals been discriminated against? Temples/Mosques/Churches burned? Non-pure enslaved, incarcerated or executed?

Yes, I think its safe to say most hate crimes comes from people with "Deep Convictions", not to mention gay marriage and anti-gay amendments passing in many states.

Just because you disagree with the Bush approach, do not assume we are falling into a dictatorship. In November we will once again have free elections for one of the three co-equal branches of our government. The people will once again decide whether we approve of the country's direction or should change course. That's what representative democracy is all about!

Don't assume the President can do whatever he wants because we are at state of perpetual war? Thats what his orders boil down to, don't sugar coat it.

 

[jkirk3000]

Response to Evanrick:

As part of his faith based initiative, approved by Congress, it is true that the federal government provides some funding to provide social services through religious institutions. How does this at all compare to Nazi Germany? In fact, can you cite one instance where it has affected you or anyone you know in a negative manner? Have you been forced to wear a pink scarf labeling you as gay?

So, exactly where are the gay & democrat concentration camps located in Texas? And where did these exiles flee to? Since the population of Texas has grown 9.6% in the last 5 years (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html), are all of these new immigrants Republican?

Redistricting is up to local elected officials. Gerrymandering is a part of our American culture, and both parties are equally guilty.

If Congress was just a great rubber stamp, why is it that many of Bush's initiatives have not been passed? The gay marriage initiative failed, as did the permanent repeal of the death tax, and several other bills.

Our national guard is now patroling the Mexican border...but please tell me where you see US military patroling the streets. So, are you against protecting our borders from illegal immigrants, including potentially terrorists trying to infiltrate our border?

The US is not bordered by 140 countries...the last time we fought with a neighbor was the Mexican American war in 1846-1848. Have we participated in the invasion of 140 countries? Well, I guess if you count all the countries we liberated in WWII after landing in Normandy, perhaps...but what relevance does this have?

You further state "Yes, I think its safe to say most hate crimes comes from people with "Deep Convictions", not to mention gay marriage and anti-gay amendments passing in many states." So? You state the obvious. I don't agree with the anti-gay amendments and such, and gay marriage has been struck down by state courts in all occaisions but one, but again I ask, where is the evidence of discrimination, enslavement, incarceration and execution against non-Evangelicans?

If you want to start a new discussion about the points you want to make, so be it. But if you intend to respond line by line to what I say, respond to what I say instead of bringing in extraneous information.

 

[Rafik]

Possibly I did better shut up...

...but I do not understand the whole issue of the discussion here. What I understand is, or better my impression: "The Extreme Left" in USA must be an equivalent to what we call "The Right Wing Social Democrats".

 

[jkirk3000]

Possibly I did better shut up...

...but I do not understand the whole issue of the discussion here. What I understand is, or better my impression: "The Extreme Left" in USA must be an equivalent to what we call "The Right Wing Social Democrats".

Please do not ever think you need to shut up! While we all may have different perspectives and opinions, we learn through disagreement and discussion.

While I do not agree with you most of the time (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual), I respect your right to say it and the manner you present your arguments. Please don't stop your postings and comments!

 

[mike-wohoo]

What do you consider to be the extreme left? I probably fall into that category in some ways but conservative in others.

I believe that every human being should be treated humanely.

I believe that animals (wild, pets, and farm animals) should be treated humanely.

I believe that the health of the environment should be protected. I believe that as human beings, we have an obligation to try and make decisions that are respectful of the environment. Profit should not come before the environment/quality of life.

I believe that people that are gay should have the same rights as people that are not.

I DO NOT believe in wild generalizations that everything should be privatized.

I DO NOT believe that corporations should have as much influence in the US government as they do today.

I believe in a free press (which does not truly exist in the US anymore). One that is not influenced by advertisers or coerced by governments, organizations, or wealthy people.

I wish that society would make a greater effort in solving serious problems: homelessness, poverty, disease, etc.

I believe in a true seperation of church and state.

I do not believe that it is necessary or even beneficial for society to solve its problems through capital punishment or torture. I would rather see us solve these problems in a non-violent, humane way. What a statement that would make.

sounds like green politics to me, which many americans may find too leftist

 

[metta]

sounds like green politics to me, which many americans may find too leftist

Ding, Ding, Ding! 100 points goes to mike-wohoo. Exactly. I'm a member of the green party. I'm farther left in some ways than most Democrats. Those things that I mentioned are the things that I belive that society should work towards. Working towards a humane society are lofty goals but I believe it would help make life more meaningful and mindful and therefore offer society a higher quality of living.

On the other hand, I have people also tell me that they do not think that I'm liberal at all. It depends on your definition of liberal. I do support business to the extent that it is not abusive. I, myself, am self employed. I don't like waste. I don't belive in blowing money but I do enjoy buying nice things. I think that the tax system should be done in a fair way (yes, people who make a lot more money should pay a higher percentage of tax...because they can).

 

[Andreus]

Please, don't rafik. It is unfortunate that our moderators are permitting these, well, less-than-brave, less-than-honest riff-raff take over the board and to permit these, well, less-than-honest, less-than-polite flotsam to intimidate our best posters. Perhaps sanity will prevail and they will find themselves on the outside looking in. I, too, have had it with their, well, less-than-brave comportment. Let us pray our moderators will inveigh upon these sad souls and temper their hatred.

I have to say, the main reason I have begun posting in this forum again is because after reading through the last months posts here, it seems that the ultra right neo boys have really just been running nilly willy over people.

I understand that the mods are committed to open discussion, but its disapointing that the level of debate had sunk so low here.

I dont know when the republican element of this forum realized it could take advantage of the mods, but it needs to stop.

Honestly

I get offended that the conservative guys are often out of controll without checks and when corrected or criticized, they act like bad little children.

ALL parties need to act like adults here, and the extreme right on JUB has become the JUB equivalent of a roving gang of Nazis in the streets of 1937 berlin, mugging anyone who disagrees with their multiple sign ons and overemotional accusations that have no ground in reality. Neocon I-nazis. uugghhhh

It becomes exuasting to keep up with their rabidity.

Some of the debate techniques here need to be cleaned up, and whats more, when you get handed your ass in debate, the correct answer is to quietly back out if the thread, not throw a sissy pissy fit, demand that your account be deleted and start over the next week as someone new because you are embarrassed.

I think that once a person asks that their account be deleted, that the IP addy be permanently banned as well.

honestly, this forum has just gotten out there,rather twilight zonish, and this forum wont get the widespread participation from the entire membership of JUB until the mods are given a chance to do their jobs and the neocons are reigned in a little.

fuck that PC crap.

If you are posting without refferences or sources, then you need to go back to hot topics. If you dont know how to debate without childish antics, then just go back to hot topics.

there are plenty of goodbye threads going in there at any given moment, so your virtual departure will hardly be notices.

 

[jkirk3000]

Well said. The way these guys just blow past facts and blow past proven points is fundamentally authoritarian. I offer the "Let The Refugees Walk Out of Harm's Way" (vis a vis the bombing of Beirut airport) as one example. I mean, what are we to say? How does one respond to such cruelty? What can be the responses except for indignation, or silence? The second example is the extremists continuing to say that the IDF doesn't target civilians -- in spite of all the data presented that proves them wrong. They just blow past the facts. This isn't debate, this is nonsense. They do not know how to debate, they only know how to repeat their lies and repeat them some more.



There's one neocon who, despite my requests, STILL sends me PMs -- I've had to disable the mechanism so as to STOP his unwanted communications. Think about that --I ASKED him to send me crap, I told him I thought he was a creep, and yet he IGNORES my request. That's really pathetic but it just further illustrates how out of control these critters are...

I've been posting here for two years and I have never seen the forum so ugly and so out of control. Now, of course, a defensive mod or two will take offense at this, perhaps issue another three pointer, and the necons themselves will attempt to belittle my post -- I can't stop that, but I can say that this is objectionable and disgraceful.

Hey, I sent you one e-mail asking if you were ok, and you call me a pathetic out of control critter?

 

[Rafik]

I'm curious about how the "extreme left" is defined in America? It seems that a lot of people regard Ted Kennedy as "extreme left" when he is centralist- to moderate right wing, to most of us outside the U.S.A.

First time I absolutely do not know how to start and to explain. I think Sparky expresses it best.

While reading the posts in the thread here I questioned myself....

when JUBers who are stressing the social responsibility of the state for the underprivileged (BTW a consensus of most of the big parties from the right to the left in most of the countries in Europe) are called for "extreme left"....

Who am I???
What will US Americans take me for??????

The new Osama Bin Laden of the Left???

What do you call people for in USA who stand up ....

for better social standards in the country,
for wages people can live from,
for a fair economic world order,
for a minimum of social standards in the world,
for the compliance of indivisible human rights,
for higher standards of environmental protection,
for the self determination of nations,
for peace in the world,
against the undermining of civil rights,
against the lobbyism of almighty companies and the privileged,
against the almighty power of monopolized, opinion manipulating mass medias,
against racism and the suppression of minorities in general....
etc. etc.

....do you perceive them as the new terrorists of the first world?

Be kind with me... Possibly I am just a muddlehead, a dreamer...

____________________________________

of course, I will go on posting... I just wrote: "Possibly better to shut up...." because some guys on the board here could uncover me as the gay brother of Bin Laden, Stalin or Hitler.

Dear GA and Andreus, you are right with this you are writing, but I think: Better to be in a bad political talk show, than not to have any platform to exchange political opinions with other gays.

I am also often upset: Trying to make offers open for earnest factual discussion and getting slogans in response, trying to point on my issue again and getting the same slogans in response again, without commenting the issue I wanted talk about. It sucks.

When I write here I know I am not the owner of the absolute truth, and I am able to learn by factual discussions, but not by exchanging slogans.
​

Obviously some guys here know the absolute truth, or they post in the way: I do not know anything, but I have an opinion. Bravo!


Rrafeeeeeeeeeeeq

 

[lickya42000]

I think extreme left, from my family's personal experience, is defined as being a communist/socialist (they might as well be interchangeable).

In terms of social issues, I'm a moderate liberal - higher wages, tax cuts, civil rights. etc.
But, I agree with the guy earlier - I think welfare needs reform. When my family moved to America, we lived on welfare and we were working our butts off to make ends meet. It was disappointing to see people sit around and wait for that monthly check. In general, I believe in helping the middle and lower class, but that doesn't mean that I support communist/socialist theories like collectivization because they simply cannot work.

Someone on this post said that the free press is gone. That is just incorrect. Though, the media has biases, it's still free! From my home country in Vietnam, the press is state controlled and journalists cannot do investigative reporting on the government (or else they'll get arrested). I mean, you watch the news and read the papers in the U.S., and there are stories about government scandals and controversies. There are even commentators that speak out against Bush. Back in my home country, NO ONE could speak out against the gov't. Here in the U.S., I always see protests against the war and other issues. Back there, you'll get imprisoned without a trial. I'm so happy to see the people and the press do whatever they want in America.

I hope this doesn't push any buttons, I just wanted to say how I feel about being an American. I think Americans should be thankful to be here. I mean, I cannot imagine my family living back in Vietnam, where political dissidents and various religious sects were being oppressed. So, as you can see, I'm patriotic. Don't get me wrong, the U.S. DOES have its share of problems and injustice. But compared to where I was from, the U.S. is a lucky place to be.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'll pick one beef with the right: they have this silly notion that corporations are "people", with rights.
I think that only humans are people (except maybe lawyers), and corporations shouldn't have the same legal status.

 

[yuty]

Extremes in any form of politics is bad. It leaves no room for flexiability, real world physics or adaptation for that matter.

It's always ended badly for both spectrums of the political spectrum.

 

[mike-wohoo]

Ding, Ding, Ding! 100 points goes to mike-wohoo.

wohoo


seriously: it always depends on where you live

I think extreme left, from my family's personal experience, is defined as being a communist/socialist (they might as well be interchangeable).

- in europe most people won't say that socialistic parties are the extreme left, they would say that they are more like 'left of the middle'.
many conservative europeans may accuse the green parties to be 'the extreme left' (this may be true for scandinavian green parties, which form in the european parliament the european united left–nordic green left).
but generally speaking, the 'extreme left' are in europe communist parties.

 

[naked gent]

^^ You talk as if civil was the root word of civilization.

 

[metta]

If society can afford to do so, why not help out someone who desperately needs it?

If our country can afford to play cowboys and indians in the sand over in Iraq (and digging holes in the sand looking for WMD that aren't there), we can afford to help those in need. Or, maybe if we didn't elect morons who start pointless wars, we could afford things like universal healthcare.

What's so wrong with having compassion for your fellow man? OK...so it isn't my fault if he needs a new kidney. So what? My taxes pay for all kinds of shit that isn't my fault.

Anyway you slice it, we could afford to do more to help our own people if we weren't so self-centered and didn't have such contempt for people less fortunate than ourselves.

I don't call it Social Liberalism. I call it being a human being who has learned to get past my basic instincts of self preservation and taking a look to see if there's anything I can do to help someone who maybe didn't have the same opportunities that I had. Do we really want to live in a society that turns it's head and refuses to even look or lift a finger as our own people suffer needlessly?

exactly


Imagine what it must be like to go through life thinking that all that matters is me me me... I have trouble relating to people like that. They are unable to feel empathy for others. I think that an inability to feel empathy should actually be considered a psychological disorder.

 

[sparky95]

exactly


Imagine what it must be like to go through life thinking that all that matters is me me me... I have trouble relating to people like that. They are unable to feel empathy for others. I think that an inability to feel empathy should actually be considered a psychological disorder.

Yay!

 

[TierraSimms]

If society can afford to do so, why not help out someone who desperately needs it?

If our country can afford to play cowboys and indians in the sand over in Iraq (and digging holes in the sand looking for WMD that aren't there), we can afford to help those in need. Or, maybe if we didn't elect morons who start pointless wars, we could afford things like universal healthcare.

What's so wrong with having compassion for your fellow man? OK...so it isn't my fault if he needs a new kidney. So what? My taxes pay for all kinds of shit that isn't my fault.

Anyw ay you slice it, we could afford to do more to help our own people if we weren't so self-centered and didn't have such contempt for people less fortunate than ourselves.

I don't call it Social Liberalism. I call it being a human being who has learned to get past my basic instincts of self preservation and taking a look to see if there's anything I can do to help someone who maybe didn't have the same opportunities that I had. Do we really want to live in a society that turns it's head and refuses to even look or lift a finger as our own people suffer needlessly?

Darfur anyone? There actual genocide that is occuring in Sudan where 12,000 people are killed a day, but we are too wind up in Iraq to even care. This is a more serious situation going on in this world that is 10x more important than Iraq. Iraqians will take care of themselves and a withdrawl should occur.

 

[chance1]

Really? I'm intrigued by people who so-called "call" themselves so-called "libertarians," especially people who so-called "say" they're also so-called "conservative." To me, that means only one so-called "thing": a Republican who is too, well, ashamed to so-called "say" they're -- you know -- a so called "gay" so-called "Republican."Pug. But, hey, if they can "pass," more power to 'em.

Way to go Alfie - take a perfectly respectful post - with a POV and a question for the board

and u go tell the guy, who u don't know, what he really is - an ashamed gay repub

another episode of "Alfie knows best", the sickening monologue of a show that reaches new lows with each new episode

 

[iman]

You are absolutely ridiculous in the nonsense that you post here.

Thank you, Thank you very much.