The Gay Bar Raid in Atlanta

[JB3]

Actually, I am surprised that Mormon churches haven't been burnt down or Mormons bashed or seen violent riots. Seeing as they played such a huge part in taking away rights.
Us gays can't stoop to their level because we can't deny them rights.
I don't hate them for their beliefs. I hate their ignorance. And when their beliefs infringes or denies me rights, I am going to be a little pissed.

But I need to go to sleep. I am attending the National Equality March tomorrow. Let's see how much hatred and violence there'll be this weekend in DC. lol

Night folks.

Great post Pumpkin.

We sure can deny them rights. We can deny them the right to worship by damaging or destroying their churches. We can deny them their right to free expression by shouting them down or assaulting them. We can deny them their right to believe something other than we do.

I don't defend what they say, but when you cross that line into hate, as Pumpkin seems to be advocating, you cross a line that will destroy any goodwill that has been built up over the years and damage the prospects of equality any time soon.

 

[JB3]

So Droid800 which version of the Bible and which version of Christianity should we use. Hmm, that is an interesting one. Which branch should we go with? Let's see, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "Judge not least thee be judged, what is that one if they slap the other cheek present the other one. What about Jonathan and David, Ruth and Naomi, and wasn't that Mary Magdalene a whore. Didn't Jesus preach to the disenfranchised. Seems he spent a lot of time among the undesirables. For that matter what books of the Bible are we including and excluding. Should we go to the original languages the text were written or rely on whatever mistranslation is handy. It seems Jesus' earliest followers were undesirables. And, did the Jewish people spent a great deal of time in slavery and exile. I wonder which version do you suggest. When you find a version the Christians can agree on you get back to me. But, I am guessing I will be waiting another few million years for that happen because they can't. Their is a schism in the Christian Church every day.

Who's saying we should use a bible for anything, especially in regards to the topic at hand? You deny that religion had a role in the founding, a denial that is in no way based in fact. Like I said, do yourself a favor and read what Washington and Henry wrote.

 

[JB3]

I don't advocate hate. You won't see me on a pupil screaming until I am red in the face and doing the fake tears bit, and the hell fire and brimstone bit. They can have their believes, but their believes need not infringe on mine or anyone else. Religion has no place in domestic or foreign policy.

You don't seem to understand that it is not acceptable for you to hate someone just because of their beliefs. Because that is exactly what you're advocating.

 

[KTheLibra]

Topics and arguments like this just make me so tired.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

The backlash has begun, thanks largely to the 'in your face' activist crowd and their shrill demands for 'gay marriage.'

It will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Of course, always blame the victim. Do you blame slavery on the Abolitionist movement? Do they still burn witches in your village?

 

[Zeno Lorea]

We have all the equality every American has, and if the activist crowd hadn't squandered their political capital on the marriage issue, we might well have civil unions by now that are recognized in all states. This was discussed at length in an earlier thread.

Yes, I blame these fools for all the damage they are doing.

I remember what it was like when there were no rights and real discrimination existed.

Most people who lived through the seventies see the glass as more than half full - sadly, too many people still see the glass as more than half empty.

We don't hve equality until we can get married too. And just because we have made progress doesn't mean we can lean back and rest. The enemy is complacency.

Some of us are not content with being a House Negro.

 

[HenryReardon]

We don't hve equality until we can get married too.

.

You can get married any time you want to do so - just find a female who will accommodate you.

 

[andysayshi]

^ So Henry, your profile says you're "partnered". If you were to die suddenly tomorrow, would your health insurance cover your partner? Would your retirement benefits default to him? Would your partner have the right to choose the method and location of your burial if your family disagreed with him?

 

[HenryReardon]

Henry if it weren't for the ladies of stonewall this forum wouldn't likely be here. If it wasn't for those who prance around and wear tutus you wouldn't have half the equality you have now. It was those brave individuals that aren't happy with the way things are. The Closet is a lonely place to be, and it is easy to nit pick the trail blazers

The people who participated in the stonewall riots weren't exactly marching in protest - they were actually fighting back.

The fools that prance in parades haven't accomplished anything except to generate a lack of respect for all of us.

I've been totally 'out' since the early seventies. My closet contains clothes. Period.

 

[HenryReardon]

^ So Henry, your profile says you're "partnered". If you were to die suddenly tomorrow, would your health insurance cover your partner? Would your retirement benefits default to him? Would your partner have the right to choose the method and location of your burial if your family disagreed with him?

Medicare doesn't cover spouses or significant others.
And, as far as I know, most health insurance policies do not survive the insured.

Everything else is in writing and legally airtight.

 

[andysayshi]

Medicare doesn't cover spouses or significant others.
And, as far as I know, most health insurance policies do not survive the insured.

So if a man who's worked 30 years for a company dies unexpectedly, his wife and dependent children are not insured from that moment? Really? American health care is in worse shape than I thought!

Everything else is in writing and legally airtight.

But hypothetically, if you hadn't prepared such documentation, either through lack of knowledge or lack of an ability to pay for it, you would NOT have those legal rights, correct? Rights which, as a married heterosexual, you would automatically have.

 

[HenryReardon]

But hypothetically, if you hadn't prepared such documentation, either through lack of knowledge or lack of an ability to pay for it, you would NOT have those legal rights, correct? Rights which, as a married heterosexual, you would automatically have.

Tell that to Michael Schiavo who fought his wife's family for more than a decade over her right to be taken off life support.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

So if a man who's worked 30 years for a company dies unexpectedly, his wife and dependent children are not insured from that moment? Really? American health care is in worse shape than I thought!

There IS no health care in America.

What they have is a medical industry.

 

[andysayshi]

Tell that to Michael Schiavo who fought his wife's family for more than a decade over her right to be taken off life support.

Don't get me started on a situation where a conservative government claiming to be AGAINST government intervention in people's lives did exactly the opposite. But I feel we are digressing too far from the topic at hand.

The bar raid in Atlanta shows a distinct bias against homosexuals, highlighting the inequality that exists for the gay community. You deny that inequality by stating that gays in the US have all the equality they need. Let's address the issue with hypotheticals, so as to keep focussed:

A 50 year old man named Larry lives in a US town with his partner of 20 years. He is a simple man, who works as a handyman and house painter. His partner works at the local WalMart as a supervisor. Their relationship is unspoken in the country town, and it is out of the question that they would ever go to any local lawyer to make wills or such things - they have plenty of time to worry about such things, and they don't really have the money for lawyers anyway.

One day, Larry falls off a roof and is killed. He has a small life insurance policy linked to his medical insurance, and he owns the house they live in. His parents arrive on the scene to make funeral arrangements and manage the deceased estate.

What rights does Larry's partner have?

 

[HenryReardon]

The bar raid in Atlanta shows a distinct bias against homosexuals, highlighting the inequality that exists for the gay community. You deny that inequality by stating that gays in the US have all the equality they need. Let's address the issue with hypotheticals, so as to keep focussed:

A 50 year old man named Larry lives in a US town with his partner of 20 years. He is a simple man, who works as a handyman and house painter. His partner works at the local WalMart as a supervisor. Their relationship is unspoken in the country town, and it is out of the question that they would ever go to any local lawyer to make wills or such things - they have plenty of time to worry about such things, and they don't really have the money for lawyers anyway.

One day, Larry falls off a roof and is killed. He has a small life insurance policy linked to his medical insurance, and he owns the house they live in. His parents arrive on the scene to make funeral arrangements and manage the deceased estate.

What rights does Larry's partner have?

Larry and his partner had the right, during Larry's lifetime, to take whatever precautions necessary to ensure that the wishes of either partner would be followed in the event of death.

In the recent past there were very likely many such cases.

Today, given the existence of on-line services (legal zoom comes to mind) there is no excuse (other than stupidity) for not having adequate legal documentation.

If you think that marriage would solve your hypothetical problem as stated, then you are very naive.

If there is money and/or property involved, blood relatives can very quickly turn into blood-sucking relatives. All the marriage ceremonies in the world won't prevent that from happening.

 

[andysayshi]

Henry, you're ignoring the point. Married heterosexuals have very real rights that exist the moment they are married. They have financial and decision-making rights which can be upheld legally. They have stronger bargaining power and real legal rights in the event of family disputes. Legal disputes between families and spouses exist in all relationship structures, but legal spouses have far more legal sway than unmarried gay spouses - if you think otherwise, you're the one being naive.

Gay couples have less (or no) legal rights in most situations. Closeted gays have even less control, because they often avoid or ignore the few rights they may be entitled to.

It's easy for affluent white males like ourselves to arrogantly dismiss as "stupid" those who are poorer, repressed, or culturally restrained. But without the automatic rights provided by equivalent and legal marriage, many gay people are left legally and financially and emotionally disadvantaged.

 

[HenryReardon]

It's easy for affluent white males like ourselves to arrogantly dismiss as "stupid" those who are poorer, repressed, or culturally restrained. But without the automatic rights provided by equivalent and legal marriage, many gay people are left legally and financially and emotionally disadvantaged.

Affluent? Speak for yourself.

The only thing marriage grants a couple in this country is the ability to file a joint tax return. Any accountant who has prepared tax returns for any length of time will tell you that filing a joint return is not always the best option. It is, for the majority of married couples, but by no means all of them. That's why, in some cases, it's called a marriage penalty.

Marriage is not the state of nirvana that you seem to think it is.

You speak of "equivalent" marriage - ie., civil unions, and that is my point.
The activist crowd could have accomplished that, had they wanted to do so. By choosing to go after so-called marriage, they have set gay rights back two decades.

Frankly, I think they did it on purpose. Do you seriously think that Jesse Jackson wants to achieve racial equality? Hardly that, because were it to be achieved, his donations would cease and he'd have to give up his oppulent life style. The leader of the southern christian leadership conference went on record before the election to say that Obama lacked slave blood and was therefore not 'black enough." Thus giving them an opening to declare the battle not won and keep the donations flowing.

Which is why the activist crowd went after marriage - keep the troops riled up and the money flowing. Never mind the extent of the damage that they caused in the process.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

You can get married any time you want to do so - just find a female who will accommodate you.

Henry Reardon, you suffer from severe internalized homophobia.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

The backlash has begun, thanks largely to the 'in your face' activist crowd and their shrill demands for 'gay marriage.'

It will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Yeah, and don't you wish that annoying Rosa Parks had just shut up and sat at the back of the bus? I mean, Jesus, can't they just pipe down already?

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Affluent? Speak for yourself.

The only thing marriage grants a couple in this country is the ability to file a joint tax return.

Wrong.

Because my husband and I aren't legally married here, he can't get a green card as my spouse. Because of this, when I got a job in America, he had to enter on a T1 work visa and needs to renew it every year.

Any year, they can refuse to renew it and he'll be forced to leave he country. If he loses his job, he loses his visa and he'll have to leave the country.

If we were straight, he'd already qualify for US citizenship.

And he also had to beg to be let into see me at the hospital after my motorcycle accident because he wasn't "family."

We've been together for 17 years.