The incest thread - not as a fetish - long overdue as a hot topic

[NotHardUp1]

"Gorillas have a taboo against incest." What a strange thing to say about Koko.

Just now, I watched a documentary about Koko. When I was a boy and teen, multiple experiments were being conducted on language expansion with apes, from chimpanzees to gorillas and orangutans and bonobos.

The study with Koko, the Lowland Gorilla, was not the first, but it became by far the most famous over the years. She had better press and some controversy followed her as her study hit several bumps along the way, triggering debates and legal battles between the zoo that originally owned her and her trainer/observer, and between that observer professor and other animal behaviorists. Later, more profound questions would be raised about the ethics of humanizing an ape and the effects that had on the lifelong happiness of an ape.

Fortunately for the pet industry, that same harsh light was never shined on the domesticated pet industry that earns trillions of dollars annually.

All that is prelude. At some point, the very maternally bonded professor, concluded that Koko was largely experiencing angst from wanting a baby but not able to have one. Aside from the contention that this may have been a projection of the professor onto the gorilla, let's assume it was innate and true.

Koko had been born in and raised in a zoo, never part of a natural gorilla group. At a young age, she was isolated and humanized in a long-term language study. At the point she began evincing signs of maternal angst, her owners negotiated successfully to acquire a younger male named Michael from his owner in Vienna. The two gorillas were introduced gradually and formed a bond, but never bred and produced offspring.

In explanation, or even apology, Koko's owner commented that "gorillas have a taboo against incest." She went on to rationalize that Koko thought of Michael as her brother.

That hit me cold as a documentary viewer.

I'm not an animal behaviorist, so have that limitation and outside perspective. How can an ape raised outside the natural society of apes have a social taboo that it has never observed, been taught, or had negatively enforced ("Koko, STOP fucking your brother")?

Taboos are not instincts, even if they may arise from instincts. Taboos are social constructs -- by definition.

The posing of such an illogical statement, unscientifically presented by a scholar holding a doctorate in a study of animal behavior, makes me skeptical of the validity of the research, just as her peers were roundly critical both the validity of its conclusions as well as the very scientific (even social science) basis of the study.

As a broader topic, how have you understood the primate language studies from the 1980's and following?

Did their revelations outweigh their scientific or ethical flaws?

Was their ultimate demise a consequence of only the evolution of animal intelligence theory beyond the human language question?

Do you think the Planet of the Apes movies could have been responsible for a chill in funding of such studies?

Is incest a biological taboo in humans, innate, and present without social reinforcement? If so, is it present in same sex interactions rather than heterosexual family dynamics only? For purposes of this question, assume incest only refers to siblings.

Feel free to quote just one question if that's all you'd like to discuss. It's a broad discussion, so I'm sure probably only one or two questions may jump out to you, if any.

BTW, Michael died a few years ago, and Koko died in 2018 in old age in her 40's.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Oh, and the thread title isn't a bait and switch.

I do think the greater and more intriguing question is incest, not some interview blunder by an animal researcher.

The thread can be about animal research and ethics, but I think taboos and incest is more the topic that all of us are touched by more immediately.

And it is a hard topic to address on JUB, as discussions inherently involve underage sex so carry potential for fetishists, even though sibling sex has nothing to do with pedophilia. Additionally, because of the social taboos, even with the cloak of anonymity on JUB, there's likely not to be any freedom to share without potential of social recrimination.

Hot Topics even has a history of scorning transexuals and bisexuals. How much more so will a discussion of incest be contentious.

All that said, we should try.

 

[Araucaria]

First, let me throw out a couple of articles I came across on a google search a couple of years ago. The articles claimed that there was a high incidence of incest among people who had been separated from their biological families at birth or very young, when they were finally reunited with their birth families many decades later. I hesitate to even bring this up, as there were only a couple of articles (the two articles perhaps originating from the same source, or the second article quoting the first one), and the claim was sorely lacking in details. There were no studies or statistics mentioned, nor even any specific for instances where an incestual relationship occurred. So I'm not sure this is even a "thing."

I certainly can't claim to be an expert on what "conclusions" were reached with Koko and the other primate language studies. I remember one of my psychology courses in which "self awareness" tests were conducted with chimpanzees, orangutans, and the other great apes. Mirrors were placed in their environments, in order to see if the great apes showed signs of recognizing that they were looking at themselves (or their reflections). Apparently only the great apes passed the test, as opposed to all other animals, who didn't. Think of birds who attack their reflections in mirrors, who do that presumably because they think their reflection is a rival, not realizing that it is their own reflection.

Probably one reason the great apes were studied for language and self reflection is that they are used as stand-ins for our extinct hominid ancestors, to try to gain insight on when, how, and why they developed these skills. But there also seems to be a human arrogance at play. Yes, Koko was taught sign language, and showed the reasoning skills of a 4 year old human child. But, as you pointed out, Koko and the other great apes were raised and kept in artificial human environments. Sign language, though, is not a skill that is developed, nor does it have any advantage to gorillas in the wild. One might wonder if teaching apes sign language is any more profound than training circus animals to do tricks. Astounding, yes, but it seems to prove little or nothing in evolutionary biology.

As far as the Koko incest quote, that does seem to be remarkably unscientific without facts or observations to back it up. As far as there being a "taboo" against incest in the animal kingdom, that seems to be asking us to believe a lot. How would an animal be able to tell that, oh, that's your sister or brother, don't mess with them? Is there some kind of "smell test" that would clue the animal in that they're about to pork their litter mate? I'm not sure I buy it.

You also asked about human incest. There doesn't seem to be much of an incest taboo, at least as far as gay men are concerned. In my own unscientific observation, most of my closest gay friends and bed partners have mentioned having sex with their brothers, so I believe it is very common.

 

[Cormac135]

Leaving monkeys aside, sadly i don't have any brothers, but if i did and they looked anything like me, well how could i stop myself.

By remembering the law that's how, though i can't remember the law on incest between brothers. probably not much, brothers and sisters you can see the reason why, no one wants to breed monsters,

 

[NotHardUp1]

With the age-old taboo on males being passive or penetrated, it becomes all the more difficult to get the real data on incidence. It's a bit like the comrades in arms allowing a temporary gay status, but then abandoning it once out of the deployment or back in port.

Add to that the known experimental phase adolescents go through, and what is actual incest in any intentional way becomes somewhat blurred, I imagine.

 

[Latimer]

You also asked about human incest. There doesn't seem to be much of an incest taboo, at least as far as gay men are concerned. In my own unscientific observation, most of my closest gay friends and bed partners have mentioned having sex with their brothers, so I believe it is very common.

It never occurred to me at the time when I was growing up, but looking back I would have loved having sex of one sort or another with my brothers, one in particular, the hotter of the two, although both were handsome enough That we never even jerked off together seems a waste.

 

[ShadowCat]

It never occurred to me at the time when I was growing up, but looking back I would have loved having sex of one sort or another with my brothers, one in particular, the hotter of the two, although both were handsome enough That we never even jerked off together seems a waste.

I kind of wish I had a brother or twin brother for that very reason. Closest I'd be able to get is a clone a willy kit lol!

 

[NotHardUp1]

There is likely a problem defining same sex incest. Whereas any exploration with a heterosexual sibling would certainly fit society's definition and trigger alarms, the simple act of mutual masturbation isn't viewed as "sex" by heteros or gays. Straight guys will even go so far as to jerk off one another without considering it gay, although if brothers did it more than just experimenting, society would probably consider that taboo.