On-Topic The NRA in Disarray

[Kulindahr]

And now recordings have been leaked that show what I've been saying all along: those who say the gun companies run the NRA have it completely backwards -- the recordings show that NRA leaders take it for granted that gun companies to dance to their piping. On top of that they reveal the contempt the core leadership has for most of the membership.

 

[KaraBulut]

A couple of big settlements over school shootings...

Sandy Hook families reach $73 million settlement with gun manufacturer Remington [CNN]

The families of five children and four adults killed in the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting have reached a $73 million settlement with the now-bankrupt gun manufacturer Remington and its four insurers, the plaintiffs' attorneys said Tuesday.

The settlement comes more than seven years after the families filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against Remington, the manufacturer of the Bushmaster AR-15-style rifle used in the massacre that left 20 children and six adults dead in Newtown, Connecticut.

The families have also "obtained and can make public thousands of pages of internal company documents that prove Remington's wrongdoing and carry important lessons for helping to prevent future mass shootings," the plaintiffs' attorneys said in a news release.

School district will pay more than $26 million to Parkland shooting victims and families [CNN]

The Broward County public school district will pay more than $26 million to the shooting victims and the families of 17 people killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

Members unanimously approved two legal settlements at a school board meeting Tuesday.

"Following the tragedy that occurred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on February 14, 2018, the school board continuously engaged in an open dialogue with the plaintiffs' representatives in an effort to reach a mutually agreeable resolution of all the civil lawsuits," Marylin Batista, the interim general counsel for Broward County Public Schools, said during the board meeting. "We have now reached an agreement that will conclude this litigation on behalf of the school board. While we recognize that no amount of money can make these families whole, it is the school board's hope that this settlement will show our heartfelt commitment to the MSD families, students, staff and faculty and the entire Broward County community."

 

[rareboy]

Nowhere near enough.

 

[Kulindahr]

A couple of big settlements over school shootings...

Sandy Hook families reach $73 million settlement with gun manufacturer Remington [CNN]



School district will pay more than $26 million to Parkland shooting victims and families [CNN]

They should have sued the police officers who stayed outside while kids were being shot.

 

[KaraBulut]

They should have sued the police officers who stayed outside while kids were being shot.

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that time that the police officers ran those ads...

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Hypocritical. The police had a job to do. They didn't do it -- so kids died.

And the ad argument is ridiculous -- his mom wasn't getting her "man card" punched when she bought the rifle, and he just stole what she bought.

With the "logic" used, people will now be able to sue auto makers if their vehicles get stuck in the mud or go off a cliff in the wilderness, or even if they wreck while speeding; all they have to sa is "th ad made me do it!"

 

[KaraBulut]

^
Hypocritical. The police had a job to do. They didn't do it -- so kids died.

Exactly what job does one middle-aged man do against a weapon that fires 200 bullets per minute?

 

[rareboy]

Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end for assault weapons.

But as I said, nowhere near enough.

 

[KaraBulut]

Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end for assault weapons.

But as I said, nowhere near enough.

There was an interesting paragraph in the NY Times story that hints that more lawsuits may be coming in the future:

A Blueprint for Suing Gun Makers Emerges [NY Times]

The industry is expected to face more such lawsuits, as other victims of mass shootings test the legal strategy. Potentially helping their case is Remington’s obligation in the settlement to release thousands of pages of internal company documents that, the Sandy Hook families contend, could reveal intent to aggressively market firearms to troubled young men like the one responsible for the 2012 shooting. (That said, legal experts caution that Remington is unlikely to disclose anything that could create additional legal liability.)

This story is reminding me more and more of the Oxycontin lawsuits against Purdue and the Sackler family. In the 1980s, the gun industry in the US started looking for strategies to boost declining sales. The promotion of weapons with large capacity magazines and assault weapons was the strategy to sell more guns.

The Promotion and Marketing of OxyContin: Commercial Triumph, Public Health Tragedy [NIH-PMC]

From 1996 to 2001, Purdue conducted more than 40 national pain-management and speaker-training conferences at resorts in Florida, Arizona, and California. More than 5000 physicians, pharmacists, and nurses attended these all-expenses-paid symposia, where they were recruited and trained for Purdue's national speaker bureau. It is well documented that this type of pharmaceutical company symposium influences physicians’ prescribing, even though the physicians who attend such symposia believe that such enticements do not alter their prescribing patterns...

From 1996 to 2000, Purdue increased its internal sales force from 318 sales representatives to 671, and its total physician call list from approximately 33,400 to 44,500 to approximately 70,500 to 94,000 physicians. Through the sales representatives, Purdue used a patient starter coupon program for OxyContin that provided patients with a free limited-time prescription for a 7 to 30 day supply. By 2001, when the program was ended, approximately 34,000 coupons had been redeemed nationally.

The distribution to health care professionals of branded promotional items such as OxyContin fishing hats, stuffed plush toys, and music compact discs (“Get in the Swing With OxyContin”) was unprecedented for a schedule II opioid, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration...

A consistent feature in the promotion and marketing of OxyContin was a systematic effort to minimize the risk of addiction in the use of opioids for the treatment of chronic non–cancer-related pain. One of the most critical issues regarding the use of opioids in the treatment of chronic non–cancer-related pain is the potential of iatrogenic addiction.

And there's this lawsuit working its way through the Federal Courts:
Silver and Lead: Inside Mexico’s Historic Lawsuit Targeting U.S. Gun Companies [The Intercept]

With the shifts in law to the north and the declaration of war to the south, the stream of military-grade weaponry flowing into Mexico, legally and illegally, became a surging river of iron. In the past decade and a half, Mexico has weathered its worst period of violence since its revolution more than a century ago, with more than 400,000 people killed and paramilitary-style criminal groups building U.S.-sourced weapons arsenals capable of inflicting significant damage on government forces. Each year, according to Mexico’s complaint, an estimated 500,000 U.S.-made firearms are illegally trafficked over the border into a country with just one legal gun shop, owned and operated by the army, and some of the strictest gun laws in the Western Hemisphere.

“We have at least 10 million guns in Mexico that shouldn’t be here because we don’t sell them in Mexico,” Celorio said. Criminal organizations, he added, “have a certain degree of impunity, not because Mexico doesn’t want to prosecute them, but because of their firepower.”

 

[TX-Beau]

^
Hypocritical. The police had a job to do. They didn't do it -- so kids died.

And the ad argument is ridiculous -- his mom wasn't getting her "man card" punched when she bought the rifle, and he just stole what she bought.

With the "logic" used, people will now be able to sue auto makers if their vehicles get stuck in the mud or go off a cliff in the wilderness, or even if they wreck while speeding; all they have to sa is "th ad made me do it!"

HYPOCRITE! Whatever job the police "have to do" is made deadlier by selling assault rifles to teenagers AND THIER MOMS 'CAUSE THEY WNATED ONE, and insecure man-babies who bought into the DELIBERATE insinuation that "real" men shoot first, 'cause, ya know, big dick don't de-escalate.

Your car comparison is fucking stupid tripe. No, you are completely mistaken about that - there is no comparison legally or otherwise, you just made one up.

 

[TX-Beau]

Hopefully, this will be the beginning of the end for assault weapons.

But as I said, nowhere near enough.

Don't hold your breath. Apparently, some fucking idiots are telling themselves that big cock comes with purchase.

 

[KaraBulut]

...As far as I'm concerned, addiction is the only reason for the existence of OxyContin.

Continuing the metaphor...

For healthcare workers in US who were in clinical practice after about 1993-1994, we were told that we were undertreating pain. Suddenly out of nowhere, we were told that pain was subjective, we were undertreating patients for pain and that patients who were in pain had low risk of addiction. Pain clinics popped up overnight. Physicians started changing their specialty to "pain management" (prior to this pain management was considered to be a subspecialty of anesthesiology).

We now know that the pharmaceutical companies had been donating money to hospitals, creating commercials and "education to promote their product and giving "grants" to doctors who prescribed the medication. And there were internal documents from Purdue that indicated that they knew that their medications were creating addicts, and in some cases, killing people. They mounted a disinformation campaign to convince the public that their drugs weren't addictive and the reports of deaths were exaggerated.

Around the same time, the gun industry created a new markets by convincing the public that violent crime was increasing (when it had been declining since 1994- around the time the assault weapons ban was passed, coincidentally). Local and national news reported carjackings, home invasions, etc to convince the public that they were at risk.

The gun industry co-opted organizations like the NRA to make donations to politicians who would pass laws deregulating the gun industry. At the same time, the industry started aggressive ad campaigns to market weapons created for war to become recreational devices, much like cars were marketed to men in the 1950s and 1960s.

Create new markets for product. Run marketing efforts to convince the public there's a big problem. Convince everyone that your product is needed and is the solution to a problem. Flood the market with money to those who will promote/prescribe/write legislation. When it become apparent that your product is creating the problem, create disinformation to convince everyone that you're still the solution, not the problem.

I truly don't understand how or why people would become addicted to them

The original market for Oxycontin was narrow, much like the market for assault weapons was on the battlefield. The idea behind Oxycontin was good- that instead of chasing pain with pain medications every 4-6 hours, there would be one pill and it would be time-released and keep the pain under control.

The market was there- particularly in oncology, HIV and terminal illnesses that had severe pain in their final days. These were also places where addiction wasn't as much of a concern. When you look at what the drug was designed to replace- stuff like Brompton's Solution- it seemed like a good idea.

But just like you don't need an AR-15 to kill a deer or to protect your home, you don't need a time-released oxycodone megadose to control post-operative pain that is temporary and will respond to less-addictive drugs.

 

[rareboy]

More guns. Miore problems.

The Data Are Pointing to One Major Driver of America’s Murder Spike (The Atlantic; January 10, 2022)

 

[gsdx]

Your car comparison is fucking stupid tripe. No, you are completely mistaken about that - there is no comparison legally or otherwise, you just made one up.

Indeed. I'm trying to remember the last time I heard about a car stuck in the mud or driving off a cliff or speeding killing 200 people per minute.

 

[Kulindahr]

Exactly what job does one middle-aged man do against a weapon that fires 200 bullets per minute?

What fantasy gun are you talking about?

 

[cityboy-stl]

Strange, isn't it, how people who cannot get guns don't use guns to kill people.

 

[Kulindahr]

HYPOCRITE! Whatever job the police "have to do" is made deadlier by selling assault rifles to teenagers AND THIER MOMS 'CAUSE THEY WNATED ONE, and insecure man-babies who bought into the DELIBERATE insinuation that "real" men shoot first, 'cause, ya know, big dick don't de-escalate.

Your car comparison is fucking stupid tripe. No, you are completely mistaken about that - there is no comparison legally or otherwise, you just made one up.

There was no "assault rifle" involved -- the AR-15 is a sporting rifle with a small caliber and a slow rate of fire that isn't suitable for assaulting anyone but unarmed victims -- which by law everyone in the school was.

And no, the car comparison is a perfect parallel -- the whole argument is "The ad made me do it!" So next time someone drives a car into a parade, will you be advocating suing the car company?

 

[Kulindahr]

Around the same time, the gun industry created a new markets by convincing the public that violent crime was increasing (when it had been declining since 1994- around the time the assault weapons ban was passed, coincidentally). Local and national news reported carjackings, home invasions, etc to convince the public that they were at risk.

You're blaming the "gun industry" for what was a political campaign by people on the left who wanted to scare citizens into voting for them? Seriously? A campaign the media joined into enthusiastically because it sold?

But just like you don't need an AR-15 to kill a deer or to protect your home, you don't need a time-released oxycodone megadose to control post-operative pain that is temporary and will respond to less-addictive drugs.

"Need" is irrelevant to constitutionally-protected rights. We don't "need" broadcast news or internet news; printed versions get the news out just fine.

 

[TX-Beau]

There was no "assault rifle" involved -- the AR-15 is a sporting rifle with a small caliber and a slow rate of fire that isn't suitable for assaulting anyone but unarmed victims -- which by law everyone in the school was.

And no, the car comparison is a perfect parallel -- the whole argument is "The ad made me do it!" So next time someone drives a car into a parade, will you be advocating suing the car company?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH - same old lame fucking shit, YOU do NOT have a right to put the rest of us in danger. Period. The Fed ALREADY regulates firearms and it's PERFECTLY Constitutional.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM, and people who want to weasel and quibble and make silly excuses for dead children, are just as dangerous as live shooters.

At this point people who refuse to help, are guilty. A whole lot of us are tired of the stupid fucking excuses made by silly people living out fantasies in their heads.

 

[Kulindahr]

More guns. Miore problems.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ld50LDd66xMnaCh5IdlcFqIuiUHlYd9-5Fkn5RpKLYkLY

That's because Congress has for generations neglected its responsibility to see that the militia -- which according to the Framers is all the people -- get proper training. Instead, they've left it up to the free market, which means that the wealthier one is and the more training one can afford, the safer one is. It's long been known that new owners unfamiliar with guns get theirs stolen more frequently, but has Congress exercised its authority under Article I Section 8? No, it has ignored the authority the Constitution actually grants and passed things which experts agree are ineffective and for which there is no constitutional authority. Instead of wasting money slaughtering strangers overseas, Congress should have been establishing recommended training standards and funding for them.

It's not "more guns, more problems", it's "lack of training, more problems". We don't oppose libel by trampling on the rights of a free press, we educate publishers and journalists and such in how to publish. We don't oppose slander by limiting free speech, we oppose it by teaching what the limits are. The solution to misuse isn't to make it harder on people to engage in exercising their rights, it's to educate them in exercising their rights responsibly.

States should be citing Article I Section 8 (now that the Supreme Court finally got around to admitting that the Fourteenth Amendment requires enforcement of the Second against states) and mandating their own training programs and funding them, plus providing tax credits for purchase of locks and safes for guns and other weapons. If the 12-year-olds in my sister's classes when she taught school out in ranch country could be fully safe and competent with guns and the 14-year-olds and up carried their guns with them to school, American adults can also learn to be safe and competent.