The Pope says that even Atheists can go to Heaven.

[sixthson]

Faith without good works is a dead faith.

Why hide your light under a bushel when we can assist our neighbour in their moment of need?

Works are the fruit of faith, not the source. It is faith in God that produces works. No faith, no good works.

 

[kallipolis]

Works are the fruit of faith, not the source. It is faith in God that produces works. No faith, no good works.

Agreed...but without proof through good works that faith is dead.

There are those who deny faith in God yet, demonstrate that faith through good deeds.

Faith in God is never determined by words declaring faithfulness but through actions that evidence faithfulness in God.

 

[kallipolis]

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

The heart of the gospel is that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, no matter what good works he might offer up. If man were able to save himself by his own works, Christ would not have had to die on the cross.

If the Pope believes other than this, he is a heretic.

Galatians 1:8 says But though we, or an angel from heaven (or the Pope), preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED.

God works His will through theists as well, as atheists who reject Him by words yet, reveal His plans through their deeds.

To believe otherwise is to declare that God's purpose for human life can only be revealed by those who declare their faithfulness in Him through words yet, fail to follow His will by serving the common good.

James 2:14-26

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[Brian Smith]

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

The heart of the gospel is that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, no matter what good works he might offer up. If man were able to save himself by his own works, Christ would not have had to die on the cross.

You are quoting Ephesians. The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Galatians 1:8

Also not part of the Gospels, yet you are preaching that it is the Gospel. Does that mean that you are "accursed"?

 

[Mariatenebre]

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

The heart of the gospel is that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, no matter what good works he might offer up. If man were able to save himself by his own works, Christ would not have had to die on the cross.

If the Pope believes other than this, he is a heretic.

Galatians 1:8 says But though we, or an angel from heaven (or the Pope), preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED.

And this shows the evil of the Bible. It is the idea that man is innately evil and that no matter what good he does he is still evil without their celestial dictator. It holds that like any cult that something is wrong with you and the only way for you to be fixed is to join this cult. Christianity also like any fascist and dictatorial ideology holds that all disbelievers no matter how good and just they are deserve to be tortured in a celestial concentration camp merely because they will not follow their tyrant on high. Which is exactly what every dictator in history has done torture all those who will not follow them. Christianity (and all of the Abrahamic religions) are fascist and cult like ideologies. Like every tyranical ideology it holds that man is innately evil and that only by embracing their ideology and doing what they tyrant says as his slave can they be redeemed. It also holds that all who do not follow this ideology are evil and subversive and deserve to be tortured. This is why I have maintained that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism etc are fascist ideologies akin to Nazism or Communism that must be thrown away.

 

[ludolfo]

And this is what makes me laugh--though it is a SERIOUS terrible mess--is when Satanists go on about going against Christianity, when the religion they go against is as bad a mthafker as they are! it is like eeenie meeany miney mo--go insane, it's all the same.

 

[sixthson]

You are quoting Ephesians. The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Also not part of the Gospels, yet you are preaching that it is the Gospel. Does that mean that you are "accursed"?

Read the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians and you will see how I am using the word gospel. "Now I make known to you, brethern, the gospel which I preached to you...." That is how the Apostle Paul used the word.

 

[Brian Smith]

And this is what makes me laugh--though it is a SERIOUS terrible mess--is when Satanists go on about going against Christianity, when the religion they go against is as bad a mthafker as they are! it is like eeenie meeany miney mo--go insane, it's all the same.

Actually, that's a point I've heard brought up by many who profess satanism. They sometimes take the view that Christian "morality" leads to an oppressed mindset that ultimately results in an oppressive culture.

For example, they might advocate breaking taboo for the sake of breaking taboo. But ultimately, why? Because letting a society get into the habit of making things taboo just leads to that society oppressing or even murdering people just for being different, often in ways they can't help. It's not that they are necessarily against prohibiting things for good reasons. However, enforcing it ought to be gone about in a sober, pragmatic manner, not with a sense that the person breaking that prohibition might have "made the volcano god unhappy."

Or let's take the habit of conservative cultures of having oppressive attitudes on sexuality. It turns out that fetishizing sexual purity just leads to the malicious preying upon the innocent and the helpless. In societies that view sexuality as beautiful and empowering, it also tends to be expressed in a more healthy and compassionate way. It's really people who have ultra-conservative attitudes who usually end up finding destructive or self-destructive outlets for their sexuality. The person who is more liberated just ends up playing it safer and behaving more ethically.

Or let's take the Satanist's attitude on being assertive and showing your aggression. I have done some research, and it turns out that a lot of sadistic murderers are actually pretty timid and repressed in their day-to-day lives. It's been scientifically researched. The Satanist is correct that, if you really want to spit in someone's eye, don't waste time thinking about it, and just get it out of your system. Take the consequences. Learn your lesson. With any luck, you might end up learning a way of expressing your feelings without being a dick. The more time you spend thinking about it, though, the more a minor transgression might snowball into an enormous amount of internalized anger. Standing up for yourself in the first place might actually make you a less dangerous person in the long-run.

Therefore, doesn't the Satanist have an argument for bucking moral oppression? I don't subscribe to Satanism on the whole, but the position is not an indefensible one. More than anything else, it serves as an answer to "moral" systems that have been proven for centuries to be counter-productive and dysfunctional.

 

[ludolfo]

MY answer is no. It is the tweedle dum of the tweedle dee trip. I had intuited this phony game long before I came across the talks of Mark Passio--who researches and talks about the "dark occultists". He says he was a Satanist, and has insider knowledge that many in these secret societies are psychopaths. He said he was brought up Catholic, but came to feel so abused by the belief system that he chose to go over to its main antagonist Satanism --This is a quote from Satanist Rex Church talking about "aesthetic terrorism":

“"Satan represents the powers of force in nature and we feel that a cleansing of the idiot ideology of the incompetent Christ is in order and so this is something the church of Satan is conducting on many different avenues. We're doing this through the use of what we have called 'aesthetic terrorism'. This involves the creative use of art, music, writing - effectively what we call propaganda - the dissemination of information to influence what we call, 'iron youth'”

NOW, the fundie Christians would most likely take us back to not being allowed to see Elvis below waist level, and ban gay sex ...of course, and I ALSO certainly don't want that oppressive shit either. But like I said it is not just between those extremes. We are intelligent beings and do not have to be played by that sorry freaking game. But that is the state of things right now. The Satanists are in control!

 

[Kulindahr]

But apparently not "virtuous" gay people.

Where do you get that?

You are quoting Ephesians. The Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Also not part of the Gospels, yet you are preaching that it is the Gospel. Does that mean that you are "accursed"?

Huh? The Gospel isn't confined to the writings with that word in the title.


Actually, a lot more is being attributed to him than he said. Read his words carefully, and it's evident that he's saying that good is possible for anyone because Christ redeemed them -- not that they are redeemed because they do anything good, but that they can do anything good because they are redeemed. He's also not saying anyone but Roman Catholics is going to Heaven; the old doctrine that apart from the Roman Catholic Church there is no salvation still stands.

All he really did was dis the 'evangelical' notion that unless one has been 'born again', one can't do good, and dump water on the corollary position that Christians shouldn't work together with anyone else.

 

[kallipolis]

^^My thoughts precisely.

Here is a video clip with Bede Griffiths speaking on this theme clearly expressing his view that atheists who serve the common good are also expressing the will of God through their actions providing the proof:

 

[kallipolis]

I chose to post a video clip of the late Bede Griffiths for he was highly progressive in expressing his views on human sexuality including acceptance of homosexuality as a normal sexual expression of the human person despite being admonished by his superiors for expressing such an opinion.

Here's a paragraph from the Wikipedia page on Bede Griffiths:

'Going native' created tensions with the Catholic hierarchy as did Bede Griffiths' remarkably progressive views. These included believing that homosexual love was "as normal and natural as love between people of the opposite sex". He advocated inter-faith communities and wanted a Church that was more concerned with love than sin. He realised that God was feminine as well as masculine and was one of the first advocates of married clergy and ministries for women. Like that other great Catholic mystic Thomas Merton who also travelled to the East, Griffiths believed that meditation should take a central place in worship.[3]
Griffiths was a proponent of integral thought, which attempts to harmonise scientific and spiritual world views. In a 1983 interview he stated,

"We're now being challenged to create a theology which would use the findings of modern science and eastern mysticism which, as you know, coincide so much, and to evolve from that a new theology which would be much more adequate."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_Griffiths

 

[bankside]

Well, while neither any atheist, nor any pope, nor any other person of faith, will go to heaven, it would be rather nice if we all set about making the world a better place.

As for Señor Bergoglio's motivation in making such a statement, he will bend church views in any direction he considers profitable and with populist appeal.

 

[TX-Beau]

What I'd like to know is how Modern Science and Eastern Mysticism "coincide so much?"

 

[zoltanspawn]

What I'd like to know is how Modern Science and Eastern Mysticism "coincide so much?"

Griffiths wrote a book called A New Vision of Reality: Western Science, Eastern Mysticism and Christian Faith. I briefly looked for excerpts online, but came up emptyhanded. No doubt he expresses his opinion therein.

 

[kallipolis]

Griffiths wrote a book called A New Vision of Reality: Western Science, Eastern Mysticism and Christian Faith. I briefly looked for excerpts online, but came up emptyhanded. No doubt he expresses his opinion therein.

This article might well assist those who are attempting to fathom Bede Griffiths' thoughts on the harmony of faith and science:

http://magazine.enlightennext.org/2...rs-rupert-sheldrake-on-father-bede-griffiths/

 

[kallipolis]

For those with some 57 minutes free time to learn more on the life of the late Bede Griffiths this video report is enlightening:

[video=vimeo;51168514]http://vimeo.com/51168514[/video]

 

[kallipolis]

Griffiths wrote a book called A New Vision of Reality: Western Science, Eastern Mysticism and Christian Faith. I briefly looked for excerpts online, but came up emptyhanded. No doubt he expresses his opinion therein.

Here is a free on line copy of this book:

http://www.pdfebooksd.com/A-New-Vis...n-Mysticism-and-Christian-Faith-PDF7-1266854/

 

[zoltanspawn]

For those with some 57 minutes free time to learn more on the life of the late Bede Griffiths this video report is enlightening:

[video=vimeo;51168514]http://vimeo.com/51168514[/video]

Watching an old Catholic man in India reading D.H. Lawrence on sex as Love...wonderful.

What other contradictions could be untwisted?

 

[Love me 2]

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

The heart of the gospel is that man is a sinner, unable to save himself, no matter what good works he might offer up. If man were able to save himself by his own works, Christ would not have had to die on the cross.

If the Pope believes other than this, he is a heretic.

Galatians 1:8 says But though we, or an angel from heaven (or the Pope), preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be ACCURSED.

Read: James 2:20-26, please.