the Pope's condoms

[Kulindahr]

it's one of the last things I would have believed, but Ratzinger -- excuse me, Pope Benedict commissioned a study on something the Vatican considers evil: condoms! Here's the report from Reuters:

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A study commissioned by Pope Benedict on the use of condoms to fight AIDS has passed its first hurdle and is now being reviewed by top theologians for possible use in a Papal document, a cardinal said on Tuesday.

"This is something that worries the Pope a lot," said Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, head of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Health Pastoral Care.

The Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms and teaches that fidelity within heterosexual marriage, chastity and abstinence are the best ways to stop the spread of AIDS.

It says promoting condoms fosters immoral and hedonistic lifestyles and behavior that will only contribute to its spread. It teaches that homosexual acts are sinful in the first place.

"Following the wishes of Benedict, we carried out a careful study on condoms, both from a scientific and moral point of view," Barragan told a news conference.

Barragan spoke on the day a United Nations report said HIV infections were on the rise in all regions and that nearly 40 million adults and children are infected worldwide.

His department had completed a 200-page study on condoms and passed it on to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which would add its own theological and doctrinal opinions.

The study, which would not be made public, would then be passed on to the Pope, who may use it for his own pronouncement.

http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...RTRUKOC_0_US-AIDS-VATICAN-CONDOMS.xml&src=rss

 

[Ramindra]

And I thought you were going to tell us about "holy" condoms!

Seriously though, many people people believed that Pope Benedict would follow the strict conservative dogma and policies of his very indecisive mentor, Pope John Paul 11. It was also the belief of many that Pope Benedict, who will be 80 in April 2007, was chosen as a "fill in" pope, someone who would not be around very long. The fact that he has asked for this study would seem to indicate that he may be a little more pragmatic than his predecessor and that for however long he is there, decisions are going to be made.

 

[ALLANKREPINA39]

It occurs to me that the pope could use the commisioning of such a study as "proof" that is trying to be compassionate, modern, etc., to saitsfy his liberal critics--only to continue the church's long-standing ban on condoms, birth control, homosexual behavior, etc. He can thus appease [for a very short while] both liberals and conservatives w/o changing anything. [Just my 2 cents.]

 

[thewiz]

The only problem is the congregation that the document will be passed through is about as conservative as the former pope. They also just recently revoked the ability of the laity serving as extraordinary ministers of the eucharist to purify communion vessels! The American Catholic church had been doing so for years and this congregation felt only the priest could perform this ritual...totally bullshit.

While the church cannot put priests into many parishes, when it faces a continuing scandal and lawsuits....they worry about purifying the communion cups!

I think Benedict may be faced with his African bishops going around Vatican authority and encouraging the use of condoms which would set up the domino theory and cause it to fall elsewhere.

 

[Kulindahr]

The only problem is the congregation that the document will be passed through is about as conservative as the former pope. They also just recently revoked the ability of the laity serving as extraordinary ministers of the eucharist to purify communion vessels! The American Catholic church had been doing so for years and this congregation felt only the priest could perform this ritual...totally bullshit.

While the church cannot put priests into many parishes, when it faces a continuing scandal and lawsuits....they worry about purifying the communion cups!

!!!
On what grounds?!
If the laity is competent to receive the sacrament, why aren't they competent to rinse the vessels? Idiocy!
Once again I think there needs to be a world RC council to put the Pope in his place, and if that doesn't happen, North American Catholics should call their own council, elect a North American Patriarch, and tell the Pope he has a new equal.
THen maybe we could get past this nonsense with condoms.

 

[thewiz]

In the U.S. and since Vatican II re-instituted the use of both species at communion (wine and bread) was encouraged. Unlike Rome, which is falling all over priests and deacons, churches in the U.S. are lucky if they have a priest; they may even have a deacon.

The US Bishops had requested an indult from the former pope that would allow extra-ordinary ministers of the Eucharist (laity) to prepare and cleanse the communion vessels. The indult had expired but the pope dying kind of took presidence so it was just coming to Benedict and the Congregation. They affirmed that only the "ordinary minister or deacon" could cleanse the vessels based on nothing. An acolyte may also do so but that would be someone preparing for ordination which also seems to be in short supply in the US.

Of course, they added that parishes could always use intinction instead of actual cups for the wine and the bread. However, what they failed to recognize or read is that intinction can only be given by a priest and a deacon so that would pretty much rule out all laity as extraordinary ministers....but then maybe that is their goal.

Something tells me with the look at the latin mass and now this, we may be moving backwards....

 

[mega]

Seriously though, many people people believed that Pope Benedict would follow the strict conservative dogma and policies of his very indecisive mentor, Pope John Paul 11. It was also the belief of many that Pope Benedict, who will be 80 in April 2007, was chosen as a "fill in" pope, someone who would not be around very long. The fact that he has asked for this study would seem to indicate that he may be a little more pragmatic than his predecessor and that for however long he is there, decisions are going to be made.

Didn't Benedict write a lot of John Paul's policies? I'm pretty sure he was very active in setting policy for JP's adminstration. I think the study is just smoke and mirrors. It will be a very long time before the Vatican changes it views on contraception. Picture hell freezing over...

 

[BigDestiny]

!!!
On what grounds?!
If the laity is competent to receive the sacrament, why aren't they competent to rinse the vessels? Idiocy!
Once again I think there needs to be a world RC council to put the Pope in his place, and if that doesn't happen, North American Catholics should call their own council, elect a North American Patriarch, and tell the Pope he has a new equal.
THen maybe we could get past this nonsense with condoms.

I know most people don't give seeing the future much credence, but there IS a prophesy on hand that Benedict would be the Catholic Church's last pope (I don't remember off hand who said it, but could find out if anyone really wants to know). So Kulindahr, your idea of a world RC council may end up coming to pass very soon.

 

[iman]

The US Bishops are almost as conservative as the Pope.

I know that it is moral and ethical to stop child molestation and to encourage the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. Why don't the Bishops and the Pope know that?

If my ethical and moral standards are higher than the Pope's and the Bishops; How can I take them seriously? The entire Christian Church is a relic of medieval times. Who needs it? What good is it doing for you?

 

[Andreus]

nuns will fly before the pope changes the official stand.

best to wait for the next pope before you expect a change.

 

[kallipolis]

A lot of prejudice and fantasy flying in the wind on this thread. It would appear that Pope knocking is a more serious business than the thread topic. Perhaps the thread might have been more appropriately named, as excreta dumping.

Today's media reports inform us that a break in the dike is beginning to reveal the approval by the RCC of the use of condoms within marriage, where one partner is infected with HIV.

 

[kallipolis]

Clearly you are not reading today's media. For the news is plain to read. Or is this too much, for the anti-Pope crowd to absorb? The RCC does acknowledge that sexual relations within marriage are also open for sexual pleasure, and not just for procreation. Natural family planning, is evidence of this fact of life. Your understandings are way out of date, and represent the sort of prejudice that normally passes for creative discussion.

 

[Spensed]

Also there is the Catechism, which is an official reference point of current Catholic doctrine.

It's true that it does say that "Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure". Should that be a major insight or surprise to anyone?

But it also says that ""every action which....proposes....to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil."

Every action that is except thermometers, calendars and calculators, which are "...in conformity with the objective criteria of morality."

It's like reading a Scientology text. Laughable if it didn't have such serious consequences.
From the UK Independent: "...2.9 million people died of Aids-related illnesses this year and 4.3 million more became infected. By next February, when it is predicted that Pope Benedict XVI will pronounce on the question, another 806,000 people will have become infected."[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't know that there's Pope-bashing going on so much as frustration born out of the experience of watching Rome tread backwards on its treadmill while the rest of the world marches on. I've watched Ratzinger since he was first in the Congregation on Doctrine (or whatever; I'm kinda loopy right now), and the best I can say of him is that he's a thinking reactionary instead of a knee-jerk one.
I don't see any window of hope in the allowing of the use of condoms by married couples when one has HIV. The reasoning is going to be the same as for allowing abortion when the life of the mother is in danger, and there the matter will end and remain, forever.
If I was out to bash Ratzinger, I'd reiterate my argument that if you take the opening chapters of Genesis as a whole instead of snipping the "be fruitful and multiply" comman out of context, it's pretty plain that it is the forbidding of contraceptive devices that is evil, and by supporting that stance, the man is standing against God -- and is disqualified as Pope.

With regard to the communion vessel issue, I also think Ratzinger & Co. need to read Romans again. Paul informed everyone that the Holy Spirit has given every church all the gifts (people) needed for its life. That means He has given each congregation the people needed for setting up and cleaning up and assisting with the sacrament -- and Ratzinger saying otherwise means he is in rebellion against the Holy Spirt, or calling St. Paul a liar... and again is disqualified for being Pope.

So I don't expect anything useful or edifying to come of this study, just a new twist on something that's been an error since probably 1850 or 1900.

 

[kallipolis]

That our friends confirm that the RCC does clearly state that sexual relations are also for pleasure should come as no surprise to people such as myself, who despite not being Catholic choose to ensure that my non pedantic manner can set the record straight with a few words. Prejudices are the less than thoughtful expression of those who choose to wallow in their world of self created negative disharmony.

 

[Spensed]

That our friends confirm that the RCC does clearly state that sexual relations are also for pleasure should come as no surprise to people such as myself, who despite not being Catholic choose to ensure that my non pedantic manner can set the record straight with a few words. Prejudices are the less than thoughtful expression of those who choose to wallow in their world of self created negative disharmony.

The Church doesn't deny that sex is pleasurable. No one asserted that it did.

The issue is to what extent the Church's hierarchy will change its irrational position on contraception (at least to avoid further deaths and disease) and why this has to take so long.

 

[iman]

I just can't imagine why people have trouble accepting the wisdom of a bunch of auto-erotic hypocrites with a variety of sexual hang ups?

 

[kallipolis]

Iman

I was wondering why you were so late with your predictable wisdom.

 

[Spensed]

Iman

I was wondering why you were so late with your predictable wisdom.

Better for you to focus on yourself and wonder why you were so early with yours.

 

[smirnoff-ice]

... if the pope's father just used a condom ....