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The private route to space

Kulindahr

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NASA is about done with shuttles -- though they could send them up one more time, not to return but to become part of a space station.

That would be possible, because of a new excellent development:

Reuters said:
A privately owned company put a spacecraft into orbit and brought it back safely on Wednesday in a groundbreaking test flight NASA hopes will lead to cargo runs to the International Space Station after the space shuttles are retired next year.

It's now established that private companies can do what NASA has dominated till now. Two companies will be sending cargo to the space station, and expect to be sending and returning people.

The point? To boost space businesses and get NASA out of the space hauling business.


Of course it's all temporary, waiting for some technical improvements to make rockets as a lunch method obsolete: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast07sep_1/


All of it a victory for the private sector and a demonstration that government has a place in getting some things started -- and then getting out of the way.
 
I'm a huge fan of Spacex. They had a huge success today.

And they designed and built their entire space launch infrastructure and vehicles for the cost of 1 shuttle launch.

That says a lot about how much more we can accomplish by enabling systems like this. In contrast the bureaucratic inefficiencies in NASA resulted in a colossal failure with the Constellation program.
 
I'm a huge fan of Spacex. They had a huge success today.

And they designed and built their entire space launch infrastructure and vehicles for the cost of 1 shuttle launch.

That says a lot about how much more we can accomplish by enabling systems like this. In contrast the bureaucratic inefficiencies in NASA resulted in a colossal failure with the Constellation program.

I read once that NASA spent more on designing the space station than Rockwell, International would have built the thing for (assuming free haulage from the shuttles). In fact supposedly at one point they and some other corporations were thinking about building their own space station -- but no government would give them launch permits.

NASA has been the sort of monopoly the Constitution meant: a government-run or -authorized one. It will be nice to see it die.
 
Today was also the first American space capsule water recovery since 1975.

spacex-capsule.photoblog600.jpg
 
"Lunch method"... nom nom?

A nominal mistake. :D

I don't really see how things are going to be made better by the private sector getting involved, outside of "libertarians" masturbating whenever the 'private sector' can get any mention. Can you outline some actual benefits here? To me, "victory for the private sector" is not inherently a good combination of words.

Other than the fact that private enterprise has spent the last decade demonstrating it can do the same thing NASA does, at a tenth of the cost?

There were companies with plans for a space station that would have cost a quarter of what the existing one did. Politics got in the way of doing things that efficiently.

Beyond that, there's the competition factor: competition breeds innovation and efficiency, and that competition is most effective between entities actually working against each other, not just competing for contracts.

And even now NASA is rejecting creative ideas, such as sending a pair of space shuttles on one last flight -- up, to remain, one as a refurbished emergency departure vehicle, the other as a big space the space station could use for whatever -- storage, if nothing else, or a garden, or....

And if one has to be sexually assaulted just to fly in a plane, I can't imagine what one would have to endure just to make it into space, or as close as free-falling in orbit around Earth gets you.

That will be up to the operators and their insurance companies, for the moment, as it should be. We've got a ways to go before misusing a LEO access vehicle for terrorist purposes is feasible -- until tourists are flying with carry-on luggage and no space suits, I'm not going to worry; after all, getting into a space suit is a close approximation of a strip search, and with the requirement for measuring mass closely there's not much room for bringing something 'extra' along.

I'm also unaware of what NASA had done to result in Obama's cancellation of the Constellation Program.

Don't know about that one.
 
I don't really see how things are going to be made better by the private sector getting involved, outside of "libertarians" masturbating whenever the 'private sector' can get any mention. Can you outline some actual benefits here? To me, "victory for the private sector" is not inherently a good combination of words.
For one, things will be getting a lot cheaper.

NASA has so far invested only $300 million in SpaceX. They had some private capital as well (about another $300 mil) and for that they designed and developed a rocket and capsule that is nearly ready to carry astronauts to the space station (after some more minor additions), and they have conducted two successful test launches of it. Compare that to over $9 billion so far spent on Constellation which has resulted in only an initial design of Ares I (the crew rocket) with no flight hardware ready whatsoever. The only construction that has been completed was a tower for the launch pad.

I'm also unaware of what NASA had done to result in Obama's cancellation of the Constellation Program.
It was grossly over budget and continually late. There was a comprehensive review of the program performed by a committee of space policy experts headed by Norm Augustine (Former Secretary of the Army) that determined the program was so behind schedule that NASA's budget would have to be increased by an additional $3 billion each year to meet it's goal of going back to the moon by 2020. As that kind of an increase was a nonstarter in the current budgetary situation, they determined that under the current funding level the Ares V (the cargo, EDS, and lunar lander lifter) would not be ready until 2028. And even with all those problems and delays it was cannibalizing the budget from all of NASA's other departments like robotic missions and earth science.

As well there were significant technical problems with the Ares I first stage being a solid rocket booster. The payload capability was not adequate for the weight of the Orion capsule but this was not discovered until late in the design, so the Orion capsule had to have a lot of systems carved out to accommodate for the smaller lift which further increased it's costs. Basically the program was a budgetary and logistical nightmare that was going nowhere fast.
 
I take it you have the data on how NASA, which has long since been pathetically underfunded, spends its funds accomplishing the narrow goals those private enterprises are doing? That is, you can discern all of what NASA does and break down its finances to demonstrate this?

I've seen the data. One reason NASA is "underfunded" is because they rarely avoid spending a million dollars when a hundred thousand would do. The big reason they're like that is that they have to play CY&A with Congress on items both real and imaginary; a second reason is that they've accumulated bureaucracy which works to study everything to death.

NASA put people on the moon before there was the internet. And, I think that's pretty much the epitome of how I don't believe this, the drive and the will, more so than 'competition', was all that was necessary. The drive and the will could've had us working to get to Mars over the years Dubya mentioned it.

NASA then was like the private outfits now: lean, mean, focused. Even NASA insiders agree that the organization has none of that left. NASA then used what worked; NASA now has the itch to make something more high-tech just because they can.

And however much I'd like to get to Mars, right now that's a stupid goal. We should be working on a permanent moon settlement, and a robot program to capture asteroids -- especially ones with rare metals. Once we're good at both those, then it will be time to think about Mars.

Those creative ideas cost money, are you now going to show where in the finances NASA could pay for this, or will you suggest that the private sector should just buy the shuttles and launch them on their own for 1/10 NASA's asking price?

NASA is going to want more station space. If the shuttles get scrapped, NASA will just end up spending three or four billion just building what they already have -- large spaces that can be sealed against vacuum. We have the shuttles; loft them, park them, and save those billions.

Right, of course. #-o

Unless the terrorists work for the operators, of course, but that's just bad cinema.

LOL

Even then it would be hard -- too many inspections and re-inspections. Things have to get casual before there can be room for a threat.

The real threat target would be a space elevator. Merely connecting it, geo-synch station to ground station, would proclaim "TARGET!" in letters a thousand miles high.

Look, I don't care that private enterprise is looking to the stars, and saying, "hey! Let's fly a couple thousand feet closer to those and make money off the rich!" But the Constellation program was looking beyond taking rich douches into orbit (where they could jettison the 'cargo', for all I care) and taking heroes back to the moon and even beyond. That's my big concern here.

But that's what the rich are good for -- throwing huge piles of money at things first, thereby making those things possible for the rest of us. Many, many advances in history have come because the rich dumped money into things, and as a result they became practical and within the reach of a middle class -- whereupon they became useful things, not just toys. Today's toys for the rich are tomorrow's tools for the middle class.

So no, you don't want them to jettison that 'cargo', you want that cargo to come back safely, and pay to go over and over and over, while systems get better and service(s) improved, until one day the rich have to move over for the upper middle class and then the middle class... and move on to new toys to throw money at.
 
For one, things will be getting a lot cheaper.

NASA has so far invested only $300 million in SpaceX. They had some private capital as well (about another $300 mil) and for that they designed and developed a rocket and capsule that is nearly ready to carry astronauts to the space station (after some more minor additions), and they have conducted two successful test launches of it. Compare that to over $9 billion so far spent on Constellation which has resulted in only an initial design of Ares I (the crew rocket) with no flight hardware ready whatsoever. The only construction that has been completed was a tower for the launch pad.


It was grossly over budget and continually late. There was a comprehensive review of the program performed by a committee of space policy experts headed by Norm Augustine (Former Secretary of the Army) that determined the program was so behind schedule that NASA's budget would have to be increased by an additional $3 billion each year to meet it's goal of going back to the moon by 2020. As that kind of an increase was a nonstarter in the current budgetary situation, they determined that under the current funding level the Ares V (the cargo, EDS, and lunar lander lifter) would not be ready until 2028. And even with all those problems and delays it was cannibalizing the budget from all of NASA's other departments like robotic missions and earth science.

As well there were significant technical problems with the Ares I first stage being a solid rocket booster. The payload capability was not adequate for the weight of the Orion capsule but this was not discovered until late in the design, so the Orion capsule had to have a lot of systems carved out to accommodate for the smaller lift which further increased it's costs. Basically the program was a budgetary and logistical nightmare that was going nowhere fast.

Nicely described. ..|
 
NASA had a valid point during the Cold War, now it's simple government subsidizing of private industry (like the military industrial complex).

As long as private industry is willing to step it up I would love to see NASA step into an administrative role.
 
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