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The religion of scientism

Kulindahr

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In a recently closed thread by MikeyLove, the anti-religious stance was upheld several times by the assertion that only the methods accepted by the person posting are legitimate for determining truth.

That's a statement of faith. Like the blind man who can't see light and therefore denies it exists, there's no reasoning with someone who demands that everyone else plays by his rules and when faced with people saying there are other rules, resorts to insults.

Humans through the ages have testified to a certain kind of light. That some don't see it, that it can't be proved by scientific method, is no proof that it doesn't exist -- it merely establishes that some don't see it.

The choices, logically, are that all these humans have been deluded or that there is something that some can see and others can't. Refusing to grant the second possibility is evidence of a closed mind, and a position of faith. That position is usually taken by people who assert that if we can't know it by science, it can't exist -- thus the name scientism.

I have no problem with someone being a scietismist. I do have a problem with them asserting that theirs is the only way to truth, and then ridiculing anyone who disagrees. The irony is that they are ridiculing themselves when they denounce those who insist they have the truth.
 
OK I'll be nice but come on. You believe in things you can't prove, that I can't see, that no one has ever seen, why should anyone just take your word for it?

That's not even about science, it's about magical claims you make that you either can't back up, or you won't back up.

Give me one good reason that I should just believe you and I'll leave you alone.
 
I'm not sure what a scietismist is - whether you are coining a new term or whether it is just a function of "shit happens."

My problem is not with multiple paths to truth. If one has no knowledge of mathematics, and one guesses that 1+5=6, one has found the truth. I think some paths are surer than others, but if they lead to the same place, so be it.

The thing is though, paths to the truth have to converge. There aren't "multiple truths" - a bit of postmodern nonsense that is even worse than theocracy for its vacuity. And when a survey of the world's religions shows them all to be on paths that not only do not converge, but in fact lead hither and yon and away from each other, it should not come as a surprise that some of us are reluctant to head down those paths.

Even a so-called "strident atheist" or "militant atheist" like Richard Dawkins acknowledges that the universe could have produced a god, or a god could have produced a universe, but he just doesn't see any reliable account of it.

Which leaves the possibility of a private god. You never really hear any theists advocating this position: that god really does exist, but only for them. In your world, there is a real and meaningful deity. In my world there is, without deception nor blindness nor shortcoming, not. Yet this position is to my knowledge universally rejected by theists in favour of a universal deity.

With regard to that aspect of universality, I agree with theists. With regard to the presence of a deity, I am utterly unconvinced. If god meant himself to be known only to you, he succeeded. And who am I to argue with god?
 
From what I have looked up about scientism, it seems to me that this is what I have been trying to tell Atheists for years. The common opinions that atheists have towards religion and metaphysics, that it's bullshit, and that were not being "realistic" or following in blind faith.

Yet, I have told many atheists, that it seems people have transformed atheism and science into a religion, which if I'm not to far off of what the main point beneath scientism is, thats what it is almost like.

Believing in only the scientific method doesn't give you more answers, and sometimes, I find many atheists more ignorant and closed minded than religious people I know. Their faith in science borderlines that of religious ignorance from the middle ages.

Some things to consider for people who are into scientism are: You can't see the inside of a star, but how do you conclusively know what occurs inside one? We understand the things associated with star, their creation, their life cycles, and their eventual death and or rebirth, but how is this any different from christianity for example? People observes Christ's miracles, water to wine, curing the sick, etc. just like we observe stars, we are simply observers, and we don't have all the answers, and I doubt we ever will.

Overall, I think any open minded person will realize that science looks at the micro aspects of life, where philosophy and religion address the macro. They can't exsist without each other, and they complement each other, that is where scientism fails, it is a closed minded view of life that likes to think we have all the answers...
 
In a recently closed thread by MikeyLove, the anti-religious stance was upheld several times by the assertion that only the methods accepted by the person posting are legitimate for determining truth.

I had a debate with a overly Pentecostal christian guy the other day. Over dinner, we debated if there is objective truth, he said there is, even about what is right in God's eyes, and that it can be found. I argued that objective truth only exists in theory, as life is subjective and that the only real truth is subjective, like life, and that there is no absolute truth to be found that applies to all. (He also repetitively tells me I can't be gay and a christian, and that I'm choosing to be gay.). Where I'm going with this is that truth will NEVER be the same for 2 people. Which is ok, thats why we all have our own eyes to see and interpret the world in ..|
 
From what I have looked up about scientism, it seems to me that this is what I have been trying to tell Atheists for years. The common opinions that atheists have towards religion and metaphysics, that it's bullshit, and that were not being "realistic" or following in blind faith.

Yet, I have told many atheists, that it seems people have transformed atheism and science into a religion, which if I'm not to far off of what the main point beneath scientism is, thats what it is almost like.

Believing in only the scientific method doesn't give you more answers, and sometimes, I find many atheists more ignorant and closed minded than religious people I know. Their faith in science borderlines that of religious ignorance from the middle ages.

Some things to consider for people who are into scientism are: You can't see the inside of a star, but how do you conclusively know what occurs inside one? We understand the things associated with star, their creation, their life cycles, and their eventual death and or rebirth, but how is this any different from christianity for example? People observes Christ's miracles, water to wine, curing the sick, etc. just like we observe stars, we are simply observers, and we don't have all the answers, and I doubt we ever will.

Inside the star: it isn't hobos and lollypops. I don't know that for sure. I don't claim to know. I am prepared to defend the probability of me being right however. The religious thinker will say "It is a grand mystery." The scientist will say, within certain limitations and well-defined parameters, we can draw certain conclusions about the inside of a star.

That isn't "blind faith."

And I must say that your argument is a bit curious: you at once laud faith as distinct from science, and yet complain that science is just another brand of faith.

Accepting the scientific method does not give you more answers about a great many things. On the other hand it doesn't claim to. It also doesn't pretend to. That is the humility of science: it is prepared to live with an unknown. A mystical opinion, in the view of a scientist, is unsubstantiated arrogance. Why make up the answer? Power. Corruption. Arrogance.

Scientists would rather wallow in their ignorance and acknowledge it as such than rely on the unsubstantiated babbling of dead preachers and live charlatans.
 
OK I'll be nice but come on. You believe in things you can't prove, that I can't see, that no one has ever seen, why should anyone just take your word for it?

That's not even about science, it's about magical claims you make that you either can't back up, or you won't back up.

Give me one good reason that I should just believe you and I'll leave you alone.

You just did exactly what I'm talking about: you're asserting a claim YOU can't prove. By your definition, that's faith.

And you also did another thing I talked about: you can't actually address the issue, so you resort to derogatory terms.

And you make another assertion you can't back up -- that "no one has ever seen". Just in response...

"...what we have heard,

what we have seen with our eyes,

what we have observed,

and have touched with our hands . . . .

we have seen it

and we testify and declare to you . . . .

what we have seen and heard

we also declare to you,"

That's from back at the beginning of Christianity. Since then, millions of people have declared pretty much the same thing.
 
I'm not sure what a scietismist is - whether you are coining a new term or whether it is just a function of "shit happens."

Scientism is believing that only science can explain things, that it is the only way to know things.
A scientismist is someone who believes that.

The thing is though, paths to the truth have to converge. There aren't "multiple truths" - a bit of postmodern nonsense that is even worse than theocracy for its vacuity. And when a survey of the world's religions shows them all to be on paths that not only do not converge, but in fact lead hither and yon and away from each other, it should not come as a surprise that some of us are reluctant to head down those paths.

The convergence or non-convergence of the great religions is an interesting topic. Some can obviously not be reconciled; for instance, the Roman Catholics and the Mormons can't both be right, and the Pentecostals and the Muslims can't both be right. Buddhism and some versions of Christianity might fit together, as might Wicca and some versions of Buddhism. But if one is to believe a number of early church fathers, along with a number of Buddhists, there is some truth at least to be found everywhere.

The rational position I see from what you're saying here is agnosticism. I had an agnostic for a physics professor, who once commented that were it up to his emotions, he'd be an atheist, but that since he relied on reason, he had to stick with being an agnostic -- but that in some moments he agreed with Nietzsche, that it would be nice if the God of the Lord's Prayer were around -- but that the behavior of the "redeemed" generally gave him little cause to believe in a Redeemer.

Heh -- as a Christian, I have to agree with the last: the biggest obstacle for faith for me is the outlandish behavior of many who claim His name... or the sheer apathy they exhibit in actually being a "little Christ", which is what "Christian" originally menat.

Even a so-called "strident atheist" or "militant atheist" like Richard Dawkins acknowledges that the universe could have produced a god, or a god could have produced a universe, but he just doesn't see any reliable account of it.

Which leaves the possibility of a private god. You never really hear any theists advocating this position: that god really does exist, but only for them. In your world, there is a real and meaningful deity. In my world there is, without deception nor blindness nor shortcoming, not. Yet this position is to my knowledge universally rejected by theists in favour of a universal deity.

With regard to that aspect of universality, I agree with theists. With regard to the presence of a deity, I am utterly unconvinced. If god meant himself to be known only to you, he succeeded. And who am I to argue with god?

That's some thoughtful stuff. IO wish Dawkins came across as being as reasonable as that makes him sound, though.

Inside the star: it isn't hobos and lollypops. I don't know that for sure. I don't claim to know. I am prepared to defend the probability of me being right however. The religious thinker will say "It is a grand mystery." The scientist will say, within certain limitations and well-defined parameters, we can draw certain conclusions about the inside of a star.

That isn't "blind faith."

And I must say that your argument is a bit curious: you at once laud faith as distinct from science, and yet complain that science is just another brand of faith.

Accepting the scientific method does not give you more answers about a great many things. On the other hand it doesn't claim to. It also doesn't pretend to. That is the humility of science: it is prepared to live with an unknown. A mystical opinion, in the view of a scientist, is unsubstantiated arrogance. Why make up the answer? Power. Corruption. Arrogance.

Scientists would rather wallow in their ignorance and acknowledge it as such than rely on the unsubstantiated babbling of dead preachers and live charlatans.

Christianity isn't about "blind faith"; that's a red herring tossed out by -- well, by blind men who refuse to even admit there might be light. Christianity is about testimony, witness, i.e. the sort of evidence one gets in court (see my response to TXBeau).

I don't think he was saying that science per se is a brand of faith, but that relying solely on it is.

No one "made up" any answers -- that's another red herring (is that a communist fish?). People encountered things that overwhelmingly convinced them that X is the truth. Claiming that things were "made up" just for the sake of power, would be... arrogance. The argument is basically impugning the testimony and honesty of millions who live lives of integrity. That is is done solely on the basis of an allegedly made-up believe is circular reasoning.

Which as some have pointed out elsewhere, is indicative of faith.


At any rate, what I find interesting here is that while on the one hand you grant that science doesn't have all the answers, you then proceed as though it must.
 
You just did exactly what I'm talking about: you're asserting a claim YOU can't prove. By your definition, that's faith.

And you also did another thing I talked about: you can't actually address the issue, so you resort to derogatory terms.

And you make another assertion you can't back up -- that "no one has ever seen". Just in response...

"...what we have heard,

what we have seen with our eyes,

what we have observed,

and have touched with our hands . . . .

we have seen it

and we testify and declare to you . . . .

what we have seen and heard

we also declare to you,"

That's from back at the beginning of Christianity. Since then, millions of people have declared pretty much the same thing.

Oh good, we're getting somewhere. Since you have actually seen and touched god, you should have no problem pointing out where he is so I can go touch him too.

I'm making no mystical claims whatsoever. I'm questioning yours, and you won't speak to that because you know you can't answer that. So you go off into these games about things you have beliefs about. But Kuli you haven't touched god, you haven't seen god. You play metaphoric and semantic games to cover the fact that it does come down to blind faith.

And frankly there are plenty of religious people YOU dismiss because their religion isn't yours, so why are you dismissing what they have seen, and what they testify and declare to you?

They make the same claims you do, so if I'm to accept your faith, I must also accept theirs on the strength of the same testament, and if you don't, that's hypocrisy because they say exactly the same thing you do.
 
Frankly, I don’t see what’s so terrible about admitting that you just believe. I may not agree but really there’s nothing problematic about saying so.
 
You just did exactly what I'm talking about: you're asserting a claim YOU can't prove. By your definition, that's faith.

And you also did another thing I talked about: you can't actually address the issue, so you resort to derogatory terms.

And you make another assertion you can't back up -- that "no one has ever seen". Just in response...

"...what we have heard,

what we have seen with our eyes,

what we have observed,

and have touched with our hands . . . .

we have seen it

and we testify and declare to you . . . .

what we have seen and heard

we also declare to you,"

That's from back at the beginning of Christianity. Since then, millions of people have declared pretty much the same thing.

You are basically defending religious beliefs by asserting this argument: a skeptic can not disprove the claims of religious beliefs, therefore, any claims made against said religious beliefs are just as faith-based as claims made for said religious beliefs, thus giving religious beliefs equal merit in any argument.

Here is the problem....the mere fact that something can not be disproved does not elevate the probability of it being true to the probability of it being false. The claims made by religious beliefs are, in their very nature, unfalsifiable, but that in no way gives them any validity.

You quote about seeing thing and hearing things and assert that millions of people have said the same thing, even though you provide no source to show millions of people have actually said such things (I know I know, it is most likely true, given the extreme amount of religious influence over a vast number of people, but when you enter in an argument with someone and fault them for making assertions they can't prove, making assertions of your own without proof leaves you open to criticism), but even if every single individual on the planet claims to have been an eye-witness for the resurrection of jesus, how much truer does that make the claim that it actually happened? Dare I discuss geocentricity and flat earth by popular opinion to make this point?

I would like to address some statements you made in your original post that are horribly flawed:

Humans through the ages have testified to a certain kind of light. That some don't see it, that it can't be proved by scientific method, is no proof that it doesn't exist -- it merely establishes that some don't see it.

I can make an infinite number of claims that can't be proved by the scientific method, that "some don't see", yet I doubt you would be here defending those claims with the same commitment as you have demonstrated when defending religious beliefs. Can I claim existence of the flying spaghetti monster (I know, it has been done to death) and expect you to have my back when I am pitted against a scietismist?

I have no problem with someone being a scietismist. I do have a problem with them asserting that theirs is the only way to truth, and then ridiculing anyone who disagrees. The irony is that they are ridiculing themselves when they denounce those who insist they have the truth.

Again you are asserting that when someone makes an unfalsifiable claim, those who deny such possibilities are guilty of committing the same "crime" - that's the irony you are talking about - ridiculing fantastical claims when the claims against them are just as fantastical. Again, you seem to be of the mind that claims for an unfalsifiable belief and claims against one are of equal validity, they hold the exact same weight in an intellectual court. Need I bring back the FSM to demonstrate this logic to be flawed? Until the FSM was dreamed up by a satirical writer, everyone "knew" there was no such thing. Once that claim was made, did everyone's understanding that the FSM does not exist suddenly become a faith-based scientism stance?

Objective evidence is the only known way to establish a valid understanding of the nature of the universe. That is not a faith-based statement. Unprovable and unfalsifiable claims neither provide evidence nor understanding about the universe we inhabit. And when those claims are made, especially when they go against current objective evidence, there is no method to argue that those who side with the evidence are just as guilty of faith-based claims as those who side with the fantastical beliefs.
 
Scientism is not a religion.

So far no one is able to prove if there were any miracles in the bible, but people believe in it.
 
Scientism is believing that only science can explain things, that it is the only way to know things.
A scientismist is someone who believes that.
Got it. I was pronouncing it wrong in my mind; now I see how you derived the word.

Christianity isn't about "blind faith"; that's a red herring tossed out by -- well, by blind men who refuse to even admit there might be light. Christianity is about testimony, witness, i.e. the sort of evidence one gets in court (see my response to TXBeau).

I don't think he was saying that science per se is a brand of faith, but that relying solely on it is.
I was actually rebutting torontoboy's blindness remark about atheism, not specifically addressing blind faith in Christianity, but I'll get there in a moment.

The convergence or non-convergence of the great religions is an interesting topic. Some can obviously not be reconciled; for instance, the Roman Catholics and the Mormons can't both be right, and the Pentecostals and the Muslims can't both be right. Buddhism and some versions of Christianity might fit together, as might Wicca and some versions of Buddhism. But if one is to believe a number of early church fathers, along with a number of Buddhists, there is some truth at least to be found everywhere.

No one "made up" any answers -- that's another red herring (is that a communist fish?). People encountered things that overwhelmingly convinced them that X is the truth. Claiming that things were "made up" just for the sake of power, would be... arrogance. The argument is basically impugning the testimony and honesty of millions who live lives of integrity. That is is done solely on the basis of an allegedly made-up believe is circular reasoning.

I think you need to compare the irreconcilable nature of the different faiths you acknowledge earlier in your post with the assertion you make that it is wrong to "impugn the testimony and honesty of millions who live lives of integrity." In your view do millions of Mormons lack honesty and integrity, or do millions of Roman Catholics lack honesty and integrity? After all their views are irreconcilable. Do millions of Atheists lack integrity?

I am comfortable stating without any arrogance, that the views of millions of sincere people are truly empty. Wrong. Occasionally not just incorrect but fully the opposite of correct. Many millions more hold views that are vanishingly unlikely.

As regards Christianity, and following up on the blindness remark, I accept that Christianity is evidence-based and that "people encountered things that overwhelmingly convinced them that X is the truth. " My view is that they ought not to have been convinced. My view is that they have relied on evidence of the same calibre as Fleischmann and Pons had when they announced they had discovered cold fusion.

I don't deny they found cold fusion because I have blindly bought into some kind of alternative dogmatic atheist narrative about the nature of thermonuclear reactions at standard temperature and pressure - there's no such narrative. And I don't deny the plausibility of Christianity because atheism has a policy of not wanting there to be a god - there's no such wish. I deny it because the evidence doesn't seem very good to conclude otherwise.



The rational position I see from what you're saying here is agnosticism. I had an agnostic for a physics professor, who once commented that were it up to his emotions, he'd be an atheist, but that since he relied on reason, he had to stick with being an agnostic -- but that in some moments he agreed with Nietzsche, that it would be nice if the God of the Lord's Prayer were around -- but that the behavior of the "redeemed" generally gave him little cause to believe in a Redeemer.

Heh -- as a Christian, I have to agree with the last: the biggest obstacle for faith for me is the outlandish behavior of many who claim His name... or the sheer apathy they exhibit in actually being a "little Christ", which is what "Christian" originally menat.
The issue of terminology is keenly debated amongst atheist-types. A lot of it has to do with the ambiguity and inconsistent usage of the term "Agnostic." As the term was first explained to me, and in its original meaning, I look to Oxford
agnostic
Pronunciation:/agˈnɒstɪk/
noun
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God
I don't agree with that type of agnosticism. It is a "limits" question in math. As the probability of knowing anything whatsoever about the reality of god's existence tends toward zero, the relevance of god's existence also tends toward zero. A hypothetical god can hide from our awareness by making no interventions, leaving no footsteps, having no bearing on anything real, exercising the utmost impotence, and he would thus make himself functionally non-existent. It seems pointless but I suppose it falls within the divine prerogative to cease to exist.

However any divine stirring, any intervention, any observation, would also undermine the classical agnostic point of view. So I reject the idea that we cannot know. We might not know now. And, exceptionally, we might never know, though as far as I can see, that rounds down to "he's not there."

At any rate, what I find interesting here is that while on the one hand you grant that science doesn't have all the answers, you then proceed as though it must.
Really! Well a scientist is going to have to explain that one to me, because I don't see it.

One last question: who is the arbiter of what is true?
 
No one "made up" any answers -- that's another red herring (is that a communist fish?). People encountered things that overwhelmingly convinced them that X is the truth. Claiming that things were "made up" just for the sake of power, would be... arrogance. The argument is basically impugning the testimony and honesty of millions who live lives of integrity. That is is done solely on the basis of an allegedly made-up believe is circular reasoning.

People can be convinced that anything is true, if the message is compelling enough - advertising works, after all.

Millions of people believe they are healthy and fit, yet stats show us most are fat and unfit. Truth is not a popularity contest. There are plenty of historical examples of large numbers of people believing a truth we now know is false.

And I've yet to meet a politician who didn't make up things for the sake of power!
 
Scientism is not a religion.

So far no one is able to prove if there were any miracles in the bible, but people believe in it.

I think that is one of the flaws in debates comparing the so-called "faith" in science to religious faith.

I can't verify anything in a religious document like the bible. Best I can do is research the passage back to the oldest know source documents.

I can easily call up a climate change scientist and engage in dialogue; I can access the papers and statistics published; I can also easily get other expert opinions. In theory I could go to university and learn enough about climate change to make my own educated conclusions from the data.

Even if I accept a biblical passage as an accurate historical document, it remains only a subjective, eye-witness account, subject to all the failings of human witnesses and empirical evidence. There are very good reasons why forensic evidence trumps human testimony in a court of law! Humans are notoriously fallible.

I'm not denying that some people have blind faith in scientists, or politicians, or Oprah. That's not the point. Comparing "faith" in logical reasoning (really, that is what the scientific method is) to faith in religious teachings is a case of apples and oranges.
 
In a recently closed thread by MikeyLove, the anti-religious stance was upheld several times by the assertion that only the methods accepted by the person posting are legitimate for determining truth.

Just had a great lunch-time discussion with my life partner on "truth". Here is where we are at:

Reality - one person's perception of the world. Reality is subjective, and this is trivial to show - for example a colour-blind person literally sees the world differently than I do.

Truth - truth is universal, beyond subjective reality. For something to be true, it must be verifiable and universal. Ideally truth can always be objectively proven, though in some rare cases - axioms - something may be accepted as truth by consensus. The traffic sign is still red even if a person is colour-blind, and he can verify this in any one of several ways.

Verifiable - requires that the same result is observed every time, no matter how often the observation/examination is repeated, and regardless of who does the examining.

Universal - the result applies in all times and places.


So, for example, the axiom of addition is truth. There is no place in this universe where 1+2=3 is false. Any person capable of rational though and understand of arithmetic will be able to verify that, every time he tests it. Logic, on which the scientific method is based, is truth. The logical truth of a statement is both verifiable and universal.

So where does this all fit into comparing faith in religion to so-called "faith in science"? Simple - religious faith is a function of reality. Scientific thought is a function of truth. Any attempt to compare religious faith to so-called faith in science shoes either intellectual dishonesty, or a confusion between the concepts I have called "reality" and "truth".

Note here that I am writing about actual science, not the blind "faith" of the many who believe whatever sexy headline the news uses to "report" on the latest studies.

(Yes, we actually talk about stuff like this at home. While watching Battlestar Galactica and debating if Jamie Bamber is an experienced boxer or if the episode was entirely the result of coaching.)
 
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1

"By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear." Hebrews 11:3

Faith is personal.

If it becomes "come follow us or go to hell"
it becomes offensive.
 
You are basically defending religious beliefs by asserting this argument: a skeptic can not disprove the claims of religious beliefs, therefore, any claims made against said religious beliefs are just as faith-based as claims made for said religious beliefs, thus giving religious beliefs equal merit in any argument.

I'm not "defending" anything here -- I'm merely pointing out that many people who attack faith are operating on faith. It has nothing to do with being able to disprove anything, only to do with the fact that people who say science is the only way to know anything are making a statement of faith.

... but when you enter in an argument with someone and fault them for making assertions they can't prove, making assertions of your own without proof leaves you open to criticism)

I'm merely pointing out that by the definition of faith tossed around here frequently by atheists, they're operating on the basis of faith. They thus undermine their own position, especially when they can't give any evidence or even rational argument for their position. Religious people can at least cite the testimony of others as to what they have experienced, but by the very nature of the beast one cannot possibly testify to the absence of something.

I can make an infinite number of claims that can't be proved by the scientific method, that "some don't see", yet I doubt you would be here defending those claims with the same commitment as you have demonstrated when defending religious beliefs. Can I claim existence of the flying spaghetti monster (I know, it has been done to death) and expect you to have my back when I am pitted against a scietismist?

If the scientismist is maintaining that there can be no such thing as the flying spaghetti monster because only science is a way to know things, absolutely -- because if he's attacking faith while relying on it, his system suffers from internal self-contradiction and thus isn't a system at all.

Again you are asserting that when someone makes an unfalsifiable claim, those who deny such possibilities are guilty of committing the same "crime" - that's the irony you are talking about - ridiculing fantastical claims when the claims against them are just as fantastical. Again, you seem to be of the mind that claims for an unfalsifiable belief and claims against one are of equal validity, they hold the exact same weight in an intellectual court. Need I bring back the FSM to demonstrate this logic to be flawed? Until the FSM was dreamed up by a satirical writer, everyone "knew" there was no such thing. Once that claim was made, did everyone's understanding that the FSM does not exist suddenly become a faith-based scientism stance?

You're missing the point: claims against a non-falsifiable belief by someone who is standing on a non-falsifiable belief are invalid, because the one arguing is attacking his own position, thus negating it. It's no different than using electricity in a demonstration meant to prove there's no such thing as electricity: the argument destroys itself.

Nothing "becomes" a faith-based scientism argument; it either is or isn't. The assertion "That can't possibly be true because it can't be know by science" is a statement of faith, and thus worthless against a statement of faith -- indeed worthless altogether, because it invalidates itself.

Objective evidence is the only known way to establish a valid understanding of the nature of the universe. That is not a faith-based statement. Unprovable and unfalsifiable claims neither provide evidence nor understanding about the universe we inhabit. And when those claims are made, especially when they go against current objective evidence, there is no method to argue that those who side with the evidence are just as guilty of faith-based claims as those who side with the fantastical beliefs.

Now, there s a statement that avoids scientism: "the only known way to establish a valid understanding of the nature of the universe". One may argue that it is not true, but it plainly acknowledges that there might be at least one other way.

The interesting thing about things being "against current objective evidence" is that the writers in a number of religions knew quite well that they were testifying of things that went contrary to what everyone knew the world to be. That's why they were called "miracles": they didn't happen every day, indeed not very often. They were uncommon enough that when people observed one, they were astounded.

The method to argue " that those who side with the evidence are just as guilty of faith-based claims as those who side with the fantastical beliefs" has nothing to do with whether someone has even made a 'fantastical' claim; it has to do with simple logic: someone whose position depends on a position that can't be proven cuts off his own argument the moment he attacks someone for holding a position that can't be proven. The position that science is the only way to know things can't be proven, so it is a position of faith, thus when that position is claimed as firm ground to assail those who operate on faith, the position destroys itself.
 
I think you need to compare the irreconcilable nature of the different faiths you acknowledge earlier in your post with the assertion you make that it is wrong to "impugn the testimony and honesty of millions who live lives of integrity." In your view do millions of Mormons lack honesty and integrity, or do millions of Roman Catholics lack honesty and integrity? After all their views are irreconcilable. Do millions of Atheists lack integrity?

WRT Mormons: I'd say that the core leadership lacks honesty and integrity, or is sincerely deceived. Deceit can be propagated.
WRT RCs, pretty much the same, except that the RC church is a LOT more intellectually honest than Salt Lake's "American Religion", so a lot more people at or near the top are going to be aware of the problems/realities. One of my favorites is Aristotelianism, which has come to hold a higher authority in the RC Church than does the Bible or the Fathers, which has brought them to conclusions that even a large portion of their clergy find ridiculous, though publicly they have to endorse them (excellent example: a survey of the beliefs of RC priests, including monastics, back in the 80s showed that a slight majority do not actually believe in transubstantiation).

Atheists? I'd say they've reached a conclusion without sufficiently considering the problem. Many are misled by the antics of such hypocrites as Dawkins, who privately, if you read his statements, is actually an agnostic, but publicly quite rudely and arrogantly damns all religious people as fools (odd, since he certainly knows that there are more than a few religious people among Nobel Prize winners).

I am comfortable stating without any arrogance, that the views of millions of sincere people are truly empty. Wrong. Occasionally not just incorrect but fully the opposite of correct. Many millions more hold views that are vanishingly unlikely.

I'd go there, though not publicly except in cases that need to be denounced, such as radical Islam -- a system which not only is internally inconsistent if the Quran is its authority, but one which goes against any reasonable conjecture of how a Creator might be expected to interact with His children.

As regards Christianity, and following up on the blindness remark, I accept that Christianity is evidence-based and that "people encountered things that overwhelmingly convinced them that X is the truth. " My view is that they ought not to have been convinced. My view is that they have relied on evidence of the same calibre as Fleischmann and Pons had when they announced they had discovered cold fusion.

I have from time to time pondered the things in my own experience that I cannot deny, and asked if they point without possibility of exception to Christ. That's a discussion I won't go into here, except to say that they were things I was neither pursuing nor expecting -- which lends weight that they point to something.

And I don't deny the plausibility of Christianity because atheism has a policy of not wanting there to be a god - there's no such wish. I deny it because the evidence doesn't seem very good to conclude otherwise.

Which leads to a question asked by many Christians: if You gave me sufficient evidence, why not others? (compare the theologian's dilemna, cur alii prae allis)

The issue of terminology is keenly debated amongst atheist-types. A lot of it has to do with the ambiguity and inconsistent usage of the term "Agnostic." As the term was first explained to me, and in its original meaning, I look to Oxford

I don't agree with that type of agnosticism. It is a "limits" question in math. As the probability of knowing anything whatsoever about the reality of god's existence tends toward zero, the relevance of god's existence also tends toward zero. A hypothetical god can hide from our awareness by making no interventions, leaving no footsteps, having no bearing on anything real, exercising the utmost impotence, and he would thus make himself functionally non-existent. It seems pointless but I suppose it falls within the divine prerogative to cease to exist.

However any divine stirring, any intervention, any observation, would also undermine the classical agnostic point of view. So I reject the idea that we cannot know. We might not know now. And, exceptionally, we might never know, though as far as I can see, that rounds down to "he's not there."

One of my favorite agnostics was a physics professor who avidly watched students' lab work for one done right but turned out... well, not wrong so much as contrary to prediction. He maintained that we really only have accumulated statistical evidence that the laws of science are what we say they are, so he kept watch for something indicating our error. He had all sorts of speculations on why or how they might not be universal, but at the end he came down to the same statement he made about God: "At the moment, I don't know".

So he wasn't a "classical" agnostic, believing that humans can't know; like Captain Kirk staying civilized, he just didn't know today.

He also had some entertaining speculations on why God might not be noticeable just now. :cool:

One last question: who is the arbiter of what is true?

Among humans? Reason. Contrary to common opinion, reason applies to scripture as much as to the latest ballistics information about North Korea's newest missile.
 
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