The triumph of conservatism for gays

[JayQueer]

I was having dinner tonight with a couple of my friends from college who are very politically conservative & Republican. (They are aware that I'm gay & they're okay with it).

As you all know, "Don't Ask, Don't tell" will be repealed in a few days, which will be a major milestone for both gays & lesbians, as well as America as a whole.

My Republican friends & I were talking about DADT, and gay issues, and one of them made an interesting point. She said, the following --

"The victory of repealing DADT and increasing same-sex marriage or civil union recognition is a victory of conservatism."

The more I thought about it, the more she made sense. Isn't love of military service & willingness to lay down one's life for one's country a conservative virtue? Isn't wanting to marry & settle down with your spouse in a monogamous relationship a conservative virtue? Isn't wanting to raise children in a stable, kid-friendly environment a conservative virtue?

The goals of the LGBT community was very different in the 1960s-1980s than it is today. Back then, gay people didn't want to (or couldn't) live in the suburbs. There was "safety in numbers" and gay people flocked to the urban core of cities, where they established "gayborhoods" & joined gay activist organizations, some with socialist undertones. It was an era of the sexual revolution & rebellion, and most gays did not want to emulate their parent's straight marriages. Fidelity was out. Sexual licentiousness & drugs were in. (HIV & AIDS would ultimately slow down the party & claim many lives).

But somewhere along the way, the powers that be within the gay community smartly realized that the public-at-large would be more sympathetic & supportive of gay people if the public could be convinced that gay people's desires, hopes, and fears were essentially the same as straight people (with the exception of the gender of the person whom they loved).

In the 1990s, 2000s & beyond, gay people are increasingly living in suburbs & in places other than the "gayborhood." Indeed, many young gay people from the Midwest or South see no need to move to New York or San Francisco, as their predecessors did. Many younger gays today in their 20s & 30s find the notion of being in a monogamous relationship & raising children of their own to be perfectly reasonable. Furthermore, many younger gay people don't find that their gay sexuality is the most notable aspect of their lives. They often have other interests & dreams that have nothing to do with their being gay.

Teenagers & "tweens" who read Archie Comics will read the storyline about Kevin Keller, a gay guy from Riverdale who ultimately serves in the military & comes home to marry "Mr. Right." What could be more conservative than a proud military man coming home to marry his sweetheart? (Seriously, next Kevin Keller will be running as a Republican for the Riverdale city council).

The triumph that gay community has made in recent years in regards to service in the military, same-sex marriage & civil unions, adoption, etc. is due to a triumph of conservative ideals.

 

[navigaytion]

The triumph that gay community has made in recent years in regards to service in the military, same-sex marriage & civil unions, adoption, etc. is due to a triumph of conservative ideals.

More like the triumph of liberal ideals of inclusion and equality, in conservative establishments.

 

[hotatlboi]

It depends on what terms you are using.

If you mean conservative as in the idea that Republicans "say" they are for that you want the government to leave you alone, get out of your life, etc. then I would agree it should be compatible with that philosophy.

If you mean "conservatives" as a political community, then it absolutely isn't, as these people are the reason DADT took so long to get rid of and why any of these gay issues are even issues to this day. It is despite these people that it was accomplished, not because of them.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Yes. It's a triumph of conservatism in the more classical sense, because it means that a "radical" community is adopting 'conservative' values and settling into the main flow of society.

But that's exactly why the GOP as an institution hates it -- they aren't conservative, they actually hate true conservatives, because they are the worst sort of reactionary: romantic reactionaries, not merely pining for a golden age that never was, but trying to bring it into reality. Conservatism can't abide that sort of idiocy.

 

[willie metcaffe]

Jay---[Text: Removed by Moderator]

Gay folks want to serve in the military because they believe in doing so. Conservatives dont have a lock on military service. If we were actually invaded as in armies crossing in from Canada or Mexico or the oceans white with foam then yeah I would probably avail myself of weaponry but because of my lack of skill I would commit some extremely unacceptable friendly fire. So I would probably be Walt Whitman-esque and help with the casualties.

Gay folks want to have families or adopt children or own or house or live in the suburbs or live in Metropolis because they want to. Conservatives do not have a lock on these desires. I am quite left and liberal but I do own a house but would have rented the house I bought if that option was available to me. I dont want a family or children but that's just me. If I did have a family, and conservatives tried to claim ownership of that decision, I would call them deluded.

Jay. Conservatives have stood in the way of gay rights for most of eternity. Maybe because centrists and/or leftists have persisted in promoting rights that these rights are finally sinking into the American social fabric. Maybe Jay some conservatives are not as afraid of same-sex marriage and/or cant bully a previously cowering public into vilifying homosexuals. Also, based on the conversation that you have related, the position proposed sounds more like rationalization to cover the fact that if these folks had their druthers, they would be happier if queers remained underfulfilled in terms of rights and opportunities. But since this is 2011 and not 1011, conservatives can sip from their demi-tasses and smile while I march down the street while wearing what I usually wear---regular clothes. Who I am is not a conservative victory. Far from it.

 

[palemale]

More like the triumph of delusional thinking for young Republicans unable to accept that they support a reactionary, neo-fascist political organization that is destroying our democratic system of government.

 

[maxpowr9]

Meh. This thread is a bunch of garbage, full of derision and a mod should have already pounced on this.

There is no link to an article yet you did not state that this thread is an opinion which is very much frowned upon. Rants without an actual basis (source) are usually sealed up by mods.

 

[JayQueer]

Meh. This thread is a bunch of garbage, full of derision and a mod should have already pounced on this.

There is no link to an article yet you did not state that this thread is an opinion which is very much frowned upon. Rants without an actual basis (source) are usually sealed up by mods.

With all due respect, how was my post "full of derision"? It was my opinion (which was fairly obvious that it was an opinion), but I worded my thoughts carefully so as not to offend anyone. You may disagree with what I wrote, but that's not the same as being offended.

Furthermore, there are many other threads in CE&P that don't have a source attached.

 

[opinterph]

Back then, gay people didn't want to (or couldn't) live in the suburbs.

“Prison is where you promise yourself the right to live.” ― Jack Kerouac

 

[csb999]

repeat

Addressing a subject I have long considered . Gay liberals vs.gay conservatives . When you think MOST gay men ( and probably 90% + of JUB supporters , this means you ) are almost all urban , single and have an above average income and education , these are nature's born conservatives . The republican party in the US , and probably most conservative parties throughout the world , have not historically supported oppressed minorities and sometimes killed them . 40 years ago in much of the U.S. most of JUB supporters could have been jailed and possibly lobotomized for what you did yesterday . So the issue is entirely how much you are still an oppressed minority. That Condoleeza Rice ( in my point - blank hippy-Canadian liberal-left-progressive opinion, a monster ) , a black female , could be a republican ( and such a major one ) is the purest victory for the progressive left . Anyone beyond a certain age will be somewhat suprised that she is not a Democrat . I once said , as a joke to a friend of mine , that the final victory will be when the KKK is headed by a disabled black lesbian ,oh ,who's Jewish . A gay republican is the most supreme victory . To repeat , to emphasize , a gay republican is the most supreme victory .

 

[T-Rexx]

More like the triumph of delusional thinking for young Republicans unable to accept that they support a reactionary, neo-fascist political organization that is destroying our democratic system of government.

QFT



The OP reminds me of George Orwell's 1984.

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

[purina]

^ ++good..

 

[Ninja108]

Sorry, bottom line is for most Republicians,making it a point about how you'll make LGBT second class citizens is the way to go.
See North Carolina and New Hampshire for the latest examples of this.

 

[evanrick]

I disagree.

You cannot twist DADT into marriage equality just so somehow it fits your warped perception of conservatism. There is no such thing as conservatism, only elitist ideology that seeks to place a value on everything in life.

 

[palemale]

repeat

Addressing a subject I have long considered . Gay liberals vs.gay conservatives . When you think MOST gay men ( and probably 90% + of JUB supporters , this means you ) are almost all urban , single and have an above average income and education , these are nature's born conservatives . The republican party in the US , and probably most conservative parties throughout the world , have not historically supported oppressed minorities and sometimes killed them . 40 years ago in much of the U.S. most of JUB supporters could have been jailed and possibly lobotomized for what you did yesterday . So the issue is entirely how much you are still an oppressed minority. That Condoleeza Rice ( in my point - blank hippy-Canadian liberal-left-progressive opinion, a monster ) , a black female , could be a republican ( and such a major one ) is the purest victory for the progressive left . Anyone beyond a certain age will be somewhat suprised that she is not a Democrat . I once said , as a joke to a friend of mine , that the final victory will be when the KKK is headed by a disabled black lesbian ,oh ,who's Jewish . A gay republican is the most supreme victory . To repeat , to emphasize , a gay republican is the most supreme victory .

Have to disagree about urban, single, above average income and education. These are born liberals or progressives. The cities are where the creative, accomplished people live who create a civilization's advancement, its culture, learning, business and government. It's been that way since the dawn of time. The countryside is where, as Karl Marx so accurately stated, people experience "the idiocy of rural life."

By the way, ever hear of Daniel Burros. He was the Jewish leader of the New York Ku Klux Klan and a former member of the American Nazi Party. He killed himself when his Jewish heritage was revealed.

 

[JayQueer]

Have to disagree about urban, single, above average income and education. These are born liberals or progressives. The cities are where the creative, accomplished people live who create a civilization's advancement, its culture, learning, business and government. It's been that way since the dawn of time. The countryside is where, as Karl Marx so accurately stated, people experience "the idiocy of rural life."

Palemale,

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I am single, from the suburbs, with an above average education and I'm a conservative.

I don't want to live in the city. It's so scary. I know a gay Republican who lives in West Hollywood and tells me stories about WeHo all the time. People getting mugged & raped on a daily basis. Broken liquor bottles and used condoms thrown about on the street. And then you have to deal with living in a shoe-box sized apartment or condo that's pancaked between levels of other other apartments. Through the thin walls, you can hear other people yelling at each other. Plus street parking is horrible. How can you park your Ford F-150 or Chevy Silverado on those narrow, pot-holed city streets? Do you know how many parking restrictions West Hollywood has? It's insane.

I disagree with your comments about rural America. I had dozens of opportunities as a Boy Scout, and in the years after, to explore the national forests & wilderness of California, plus many small towns.

While I am most comfortable in the suburbs, I think there is a certain charm to rural America. The people who live in rural America farm and produce the food we eat. They send their sons to serve in the military & defend our freedom. They offer hospitality to cosmopolitan city-dwellers looking for a "rest stop" or a place to stay on their road trips. People who live in rural America may not wear the trendiest clothes or know the latest celebrity gossip, but they love God, family, and America. Sounds good to me.

 

[JayQueer]

Sorry, bottom line is for most Republicians,making it a point about how you'll make LGBT second class citizens is the way to go.
See North Carolina and New Hampshire for the latest examples of this.

This isn't about Republicans, this is about conservatism.

Just because Republicans call themselves "conservatives" doesn't mean that they are really so. Banning gay marriage and restricting gay parents' adoption is actually BIG GOVERNMENT. If Republicans were really "small government" they would prefer if the government got out of the "marriage business" altogether and allowed two people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, to have a legal "civil union" and let a religious organization, on it's own judgment, sanctify that union as a "marriage."

The reason why many Republicans (especially in the Midwest & South) are so "anti-gay" is because they pander to the "Religious Right" and evangelical Christians for votes & support in the following election. The "Religious Right" may call themselves "conservatives" but they are really not.

Don't confuse the true meaning of conservatism with what Republicans call themselves. It's not necessarily the same thing.

With that said, there is no way the Democratic Party is conservative either, with all of their big government policies.

 

[palemale]

Palemale,

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I am single, from the suburbs, with an above average education and I'm a conservative.

I don't want to live in the city. It's so scary. I know a gay Republican who lives in West Hollywood and tells me stories about WeHo all the time. People getting mugged & raped on a daily basis. Broken liquor bottles and used condoms thrown about on the street. And then you have to deal with living in a shoe-box sized apartment or condo that's pancaked between levels of other other apartments. Through the thin walls, you can hear other people yelling at each other. Plus street parking is horrible. How can you park your Ford F-150 or Chevy Silverado on those narrow, pot-holed city streets? Do you know how many parking restrictions West Hollywood has? It's insane.

I disagree with your comments about rural America. I had dozens of opportunities as a Boy Scout, and in the years after, to explore the national forests & wilderness of California, plus many small towns.

While I am most comfortable in the suburbs, I think there is a certain charm to rural America. The people who live in rural America farm and produce the food we eat. They send their sons to serve in the military & defend our freedom. They offer hospitality to cosmopolitan city-dwellers looking for a "rest stop" or a place to stay on their road trips. People who live in rural America may not wear the trendiest clothes or know the latest celebrity gossip, but they love God, family, and America. Sounds good to me.

If Karl Marx had met you, I suspect his writings would also have contained a reference to the idiocy of suburban life, too.

 

[Seasoned]

You can tell yourself whatever you like. It doesn't make it correct. However there are classic Liberal and Conservative ideas and theories that transcend the American imperfect Republican and Democratic Parties. Don't confuse the two concepts. BTW, how big of your conservative friends to be ok with you.

 

[JayQueer]

If Karl Marx had met you, I suspect his writings would also have contained a reference to the idiocy of suburban life, too.

With all due respect, I don't care what Karl Marx would think of me. I don't believe in socialism & communism (things that Marx believed in). How did socialism work out for the Soviet Union?

I believe in small government, low taxes, capitalism, and freedom.