The US and Global Warming

[Dobson73]

Since the release of "An Inconvenient Truth" here in Australia and now the release of the Stern report in the UK, our Government is very very slowly starting to come in line with the population and understand that global warming is occuring.
Whilst our leaders are still like startled rabbits stuck in the headlights of this onrushing disaster, they are starting to twich a little and channel some funds towards solar power, wind power, new technologies etc.

But this morning I spent quite a bit of time on The New York Times website before I found 1 article about the Stern Report which pretty well said that Britian realises the oncoming disaster but that Bush doesn't believe it.

It wasn't until I went to The Washington Post before I found a few more articles which indicated that there are a few steps being taken to reduce carbon emissions in the US.

But considering the US is one of the worlds greatest contributors to global warming along with China and India, why is it that it's not hitting the front pages of your daily papers? Why are you not all up in arms and demanding your Government do more to help the planet?

Or are you and we're just not hearing about it? I hope you are and that I'm wrong. After seeing "An Inconvenient Truth" my friend said that it was the scariest film he's ever seen. Global warming and our Government's lack of action over the last 10 years is now dominating our new channels, news radio, our papers and even commercial radio DJ's are jumping up and down demanding more action.

I'm interested to hear what sort of ground swell there is in the US. What are all these people running for Congress promising on global warming and carbon reduction? And what are you, as voters and free thinkers, doing to ensure that the US starts to clean up it's act just as Australia has to start to clean up it's act?

 

[newlink]

Who's got time for a little thing like "global warming"... we're working on the REALLY BIG issues like keeping gays from getting married!

 

[Centexfarmer]

Sadly, it's a "non-issue" here in America as far as the mid-term elections go.

Bush and his cronies call Global Warming "junk science."

Besides, haven't you heard that Reese Witherspoon, and Ryan Philippe are separating?


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[Centexfarmer]

Seriously though, it's become "politicized" and muddled.:



The problem is, that since we haven't had any hurricanes to mention this season, Global Warming isn't on anyone's radar at the moment.

 

[JayHew]

That there is global warming is without doubt, what is in major doubt is what is man's contribution to it. Many times the citation of "the majority of scientists" doesn't mean scientists whos major field of study is climate and climate changes, but anyone who has a PhD in something. The guys who study climate change, the majority are still in doubt of man's influence.

In the 50's when I was in grade school I was taught we were heading for a new ice age and again in the 70's that was the taught future climate. Now all of a sudden it is totally reversed and going the other way. According to studies of ancient earth ages, there is always a dramatic warming just prior to onset of an ice age. Currently too, the sun is putting out more energy. Do these things somehow not count?

I guess what I object to is just about any joe shit the rag man who hasn't a bit of background can say anything concerning the environment and climate change and is believed as a new prophet with a new religion. Anyone with years of study and training background can disagree with JSTRM and is consider a bumpkin or in the pocket of some corporation or government scheme.

I will grant there is a need for some concern, but not with reactions that threaten to destroy the economies and social structure of numerous countries and even humanity itself. Here is needed a mediocum of cautious study and well planned responses, if indeed any will work. We know by ancient studies the earth has moved through such phases before, what is to say we are not now?

For me Al Gore is no expert but is damn good at sounding the alarm. Please excuse me while I await a little more actual scientific study and logical conclusions before I make my decision. Overall, my personal feeling is that this is nothing more than another warming phase of the earth cycle.

 

[keikekaze]

And then there's the little manner that the Bush gang themselves--including your very own Rupert Murdoch, Dobson--own all the US media, so things like the Stern report, or anything at all relevant to global warming, don't get published therein.

Nothing will ever wake up the Bush gang or the US media, but when Democrats reclaim Congress and the White House you'll see some action here.

 

[epicAdam]

What I don't understand is this: even if carbon emissions don't cause global warming, they're still not helping get our air any cleaner. Why is it that rates of asthma are skyrocketing in the United States? Why is it that people are so concerned with the effects of trans fats in their food but refuse to acknowledge the environmental pollutants that are infiltrating their bodies every second?

 

[frankfrank]

What I don't understand is this: even if carbon emissions don't cause global warming, they're still not helping get our air any cleaner. Why is it that rates of asthma are skyrocketing in the United States? Why is it that people are so concerned with the effects of trans fats in their food but refuse to acknowledge the environmental pollutants that are infiltrating their bodies every second?

BRAVO...I've been waiting to hear somebody - ANYBODY - talk about this. Global warming is real!...but...pollution, carcinogens, etc. have become such a non-issue. Yes, asthma, allergies, rare cancers...it's that crap that we have to keep breathing. I'm old enough to remember (oops, isn't that another thread?) when haze was extremely rare in Michigan and was pretty much visible only during a temperature inversion or in the middle of a stagnant high-pressure dome. Now there seems to always be haze even here in western Illinois, which is not even in the direct path of the amount of pollutants that Michigan is.

I don't understand the lack of discussion either, epicAdam. Thank you for bringing this up.

 

[Dobson73]

Wow, guys, I'm quite stunned by your replies. I knew that things in the US were bad but your replies just leave me really quite depressed and aghast. They range from indifference to what I consider ignorance and selfishness. Please tell me that you're not serious in your replies?? Your country is THE SINGLE LARGET CONTRIBUTOR OF CARBONS into the atmosphere and yet you just go, yeh, whatever? And then you're so narrow minded as to start bitching about haze in western Illinois. What about the rest of the world? I know you're a very insular nation but I didn't expect this.

JayHew, what more proof are you waiting for? How about we flood Mauritius and islands such as Niue and the Seychelles to give you an idea as to what you're in for? And then, once we've lost Greenland, Lower Manhattan can go along with Shanghai, much of China east of Beijing, Bangladesh and the Ganges Delta will go. Still looking for proof? You strike me as the really obese person who needs to be told he's fat but then has a heart attack and dies, only to say from the grave, "I wish you'd warned me".

The Artic Ice Cap is melting. The Antarctic is approx 18mths away from losing it's largest ice shelf which has begun to split away and melt. Kilimanjaro which was once covered by perma-frost is now going to be totally exposed by 2010. (Kilimanjaro is a mountain in Africa)

Pacific Island nations are losing parts of their shoreline to rising seas.

Houses built on the Perma-frost in Alaska and Canada are collapsing due to Global Warming.

And Katrina? I reckon you are about to see a few more of her family kicking around and she won't be stopping at coastal points.

Umm, what other proof do you want? Ask any farmer in Western Queensland or Victoria how things are and they'll tell you in quite colourful language. These are farmers who haven't had solid rain for approx 9 years. They've had the odd shower but not enough to save their crops.

Pop over to Africa and ask them why the Sahara is growing or go to southern America and ask them about Patagonia and the lack of snow/ice?

Our Planet is at risk, guys. Your nation is the major contributor of carbon gases followed by China and India which is causing this looming disaster. My nation isn't helping either but at least we're working hard down here to change their minds as quickly as we can.

keikekaze, you say that nothing will wake up the Bush gang. Have you tried? What have YOU personally done to wake them up to Global Warming? And then what have YOU done to clean up your environment?

I bet you guys in the US use your air conditioners daily, you take showers of, oh, maybe 6-8 minutes each, you fill your spas and pools frequently and wash your cars with hoses running.

I'm not a scientist, I'm not an expert. I'm just someone who happens to love the world I live in. I drive a small 4cyl car, I take 3 minute showers, I use a car wash and I don't water the garden with fresh water. I don't have an air con unit at home, I don't use a dish washer and I recycle the shower water for the garden where possible.

But sadly, there are people in the world who are selfish, just damed selfish. I would love to think I belonged to a community that didn't have anyone in the category but I sense I'm wrong.

Thus ends my diatribe.

 

[Dobson73]

And yes, before you attack me on this, this is a bit of an attack against the US. If you're the greatest nation in the world, can you show us what that means? xx

 

[Tengilethos]

Currently too, the sun is putting out more energy

Could you please cite a source for this statement, JayHew??
This is one of the most often abused excuse for radical anti-environmentalists that it makes me sick whenever I hear this.
The earth is warming and humans are probably the reason for most of it.
But just wait, Dobson73, when in some years even the oil-industry is forced to admit that we are destroying the planet what people like JayHew are going to say then.

 

[JayHew]

Tengilethos - FYI

Sun's Output Increasing in Possible Trend Fueling Global Warming
By Robert Roy Britt
Senior Science Writer
posted: 02:30 pm ET
20 March 2003

In what could be the simplest explanation for one component of global warming, a new study shows the Sun's radiation has increased by .05 percent per decade since the late 1970s.

The increase would only be significant to Earth's climate if it has been going on for a century or more, said study leader Richard Willson, a Columbia University researcher also affiliated with NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies.

The Sun's increasing output has only been monitored with precision since satellite technology allowed necessary observations. Willson is not sure if the trend extends further back in time, but other studies suggest it does.

"This trend is important because, if sustained over many decades, it could cause significant climate change," Willson said.


Dobson73 -

That you are a concerned individual is evident in what you say and what you feel and I can and do respect that. What I am saying here is what I have seen over the years (and I have been around for a number of them) is a constant worry wart attitude and a whipsaw of emotions driving fears. It results in chicken littles screaming that the sky is falling and all sorts of knee jerk actions result. There are groups and even government administrations that cater to the idea of keeping people whipped up in an emotional fear driven state, thus keeping them off balance resulting in all sorts of mischief being done and accomplished before anyone has any idea of what is happening. I ask that you not fall into that.

This is not to say there are no concerns, there are, but what is the actual thing going on? It takes time and study for sure, but we also have to have a look at what the earth has done over the eons of its existance. There have been many cycles noted in geological records (including shifting of the poles rapidly). Are we to say today, it is no longer possible for any of this sort of cycling to happen again on the natural course of things?

As for studies, are they put together correctly? At best they give a snapshot, but if parameters are not properly laid out and relavent factors applied, anything can be "proven". Some of what is seen out there with studies are percisely "Junk Science". Blind acceptance of anything without first being able to ascertain whether or not the proper parameters were followed, is not what it is all about.

Unfortunately we as a species have a bit of the herd mentality and will take the course of least resistance, thus it is far easier to have someone else get the facts and all we have to do is accept/repeat them. Again this is not going to help in making proper decisions. We as individuals have to come to some sort of conclusion, but we can only do that by investing one of the most precious things we have and can give to anyone, our time, to read, decipher and interrupt results and that includes reading the studies of the opposite conclusions.

Everyone and every group has an agenda, just be sure it is the one you want to invest in. Don't blindly accept anything at its face value unless you are willing to live with the consequences. Now the same is said to me, and I accept that, but I would rather have my own conclusions instead of someone else's, that is why way back when, momma give me a library card.

I am not at all convienced as yet that Man is having as huge an impact on the whole global warming thing as hyped. That he is having a negative impact on the earth and its fauna, etc. is without question and yes we can do things differently, but at the same time, we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[frankfrank]

And then you're so narrow minded as to start bitching about haze in western Illinois. What about the rest of the world? I know you're a very insular nation but I didn't expect this.

My intention was to show that haze is showing up in places where it DID NOT show up in the past - and I presume that the same haze is increasing elsewhere. This FAR exceeds western Illinois; the poisons in this haze occur and spread worldwide. I brought up this observation to show that, merely in my lifetime, I can actually visibly SEE that the amount of haze (AND POISON IN THE AIR) has noticeably increased. And, presumably, if it has increased here, the same will be true worldwide. I do realize this is anything but a mere "local" problem.

Pollution was actually worse in the 1960's (and earlier) than in the 1970's, by which time more clean air standards had gone into effect. (And, yes, there is now more air-gunk than in the not-so-good 60s.) I think the air was at its cleanest in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and "air from the USA" had become safer as it drifted across other parts of the world, but it has clearly gotten far worse in recent years.

I'm curious if there's been a noticeable increase in haze (the most "visible" sign of increased pollution) in Australia? It takes a while longer for air from this part of the world to mix into the Southern Hemisphere, but it eventually happens. Perhaps somebody is even measuring air quality somewhere. I understand there is more pollution detected in the Arctic - far away from cars, factories and incinerators - but I don't hear about air measurements in the U.S. anymore, and it's clear that the politicians and corporations in power don't care if the air gets filthy.

The drug companies, etc. aren't going to complain, either - with more people coming down with asthmas, cancers and other illnesses, they can pump out even more drugs and rake in even more massive profits. A "de facto conspiracy" - the pharms, AMA, etc. won't conspire in this way, but the end result is the same.

I have no doubt that some of the visible haze is coming from major developing countries such as India and China as well where many more people are becoming fuel consumers. I even noticed it marginally in Montana and Wyoming on my recent trip - the first time I've EVER seen it in those places - so it IS spreading. If the U.S. really wanted to do it right, "we" could be cooperating with those countries (and others - Mexico, Nigeria, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.) and be working in unison to develop eco-friendly want of finding energy. Of course that would go entirely against the pro-oil interests of Bush, Cheney and Rice.

Not to mention that if "we" decided to benevolently cooperate with such other countries, I'd be pretty skeptical, and very suspicious of the true agenda.

 

[frankfrank]

"This trend is important because, if sustained over many decades, it could cause significant climate change," Willson said.


That you are a concerned individual is evident in what you say and what you feel and I can and do respect that. It takes time and study for sure
I am not at all convienced as yet that Man is having as huge an impact on the whole global warming thing as hyped. That he is having a negative impact on the earth and its fauna, etc. is without question

If it's sustained over many decades, it "could" cause significant climate change?
OK, there already IS climate change, and Willson is only saying it COULD be caused by the sun. Also note that he says MANY decades, but the increase in solar heat only started in the late 1970's, which does **NOT** cover a period of "many decades." That tells me that, with Willson's own words, he's saying that global warming is being caused by "us" (lower case AND capital latters), and we'd better listen. Can we afford to wait "many decades" doing nothing, and see if he was right? I don't think so, because we have no other planet to live on.

Dobson73 is, and should be, concerned, and though he mis-read my original comments, I agree with him entirely. We don't have time go go through all the "time and study" that it takes; committees and studies seem to take on lives of their own, and often the problem is perpetually ignored because it's still being "studied." The U.S. could take the world's lead in environmentally-sound energy policies, but instead who is being the sensible player: BRAZIL??!!

I am convinced that Man is having an impact on the health and the future of this planet. The movie AN INVONCENIENT TRUTH (Al Gore's movie) brings some very alarming statistics to light, and I have heard NOBODY allege that the statistics in that movie are lies. Some of the alarm-signs have risen spectacularly in the past 10 to 15 years. Glad to see that you do realize that we're negatively impacting other life on this planet Jayhew.

There are some people out there who won't be convinced that global warming exists, even when "SURF'S UP!" becomes a rallying cry in Montgomery, Alabama or London, England.

 

[Dobson73]

Prarie, I apologise, I did misread and I accept where you're coming from

JayHew. Does the fact that the United Nations released a report in 1995 predicting exactly what is now happening due to man's intervention not worry you?

Until about 6-8mths ago I figured, "not my problem". But if I live for another 15-20 years, yes, it's my problem.

You are in a unique position, as am I and everyone one of us reading this Thread, to make a difference. Albeit in a very small way but in a way that can help. To paraphrase Ghandi, A giant change can be effected by one small step. (Sorry, Mahatma, that's a terrible bastardisation!!)

As for studies, are they put together correctly? At best they give a snapshot, but if parameters are not properly laid out and relavent factors applied, anything can be "proven". Some of what is seen out there with studies are percisely "Junk Science". Blind acceptance of anything without first being able to ascertain whether or not the proper parameters were followed, is not what it is all about. [/unquote]

OK, let's wait for 30-40 years, we can all decide which person or people we're going to trust, see what develops and if the predictions are coming true from a certain group, then lets get together and discuss the issue.

Remember Neville Chamberlain? Why wait? Imagine how much more beautiful our world could be if we didn't wait. If we acted now!!! If we began to clean up our act regardless of whether we are or are not about to all suffer from G. Warming? How stunning our world would become if we just got off our arses and did something, NOW! For us! For our friends. For our Family.

Let's not wait for 50 years to see if what was predicted comes true because we all know then that it will be too late, lets do something RIGHT NOW.

How powerful will you feel and how happy will you be to know that you're making a small difference right at this point! I know I sound like a zealot but I love my home and my country and planet and we have no time to "wait and see". Wait for what? Final confirmation that we're fucked? Let head it off at the pass, huh?

 

[levenshulme31]

The really frustrating thing is the fact that it would utimately be of great benefit, financially, morally and in quality of life terms, for the US (and the west in general, along with everywhere else for that matter) to concentrate its efforts on switching away from the oil economy. The problem is that there are too many special interest groups who will fight tooth and nail to hold on to their power base and money.

If every building had to have solarcells and micro-windturbines fitted, were built to the highest environmental standards and equipped with the most efficient appliances, then huge amounts of CO2 emmissions could be saved.

Move away from gasoline engines and into hydrogen cell and electric hybrid vehicles. Just stop buying 9 liter trucks to go to WalMart in, YOU DON'T NEED THEM.

The industries required to transform the economy away from carbon based fuel would be more than sufficient to replace the oil industry as far as economic performance would go and if you invested enough in the new technology you could export it all over the world and make a nice profit along the way.

Once you stop being oil-dependent you can stop stomping all over the middle east and pissing everyone off just to secure your oil fix. Once your need to dominate the world's resources stops, then the main argument the terrorists have for opposing you disappears and you can isolate the remaining religious extremists for the wing-nuts they are.

The thing is it needs governmnet action on a grand scale. True, individuals need to do their bit but most won't until they have to.

Personally I'm becoming more and more pessimistic about the whole thing. I think we're screwed, and people being the way they are, the nations of the world will tear each other to shreds over ideological bullshit before they'll co-operate.

 

[latigolad78374]

And yes, before you attack me on this, this is a bit of an attack against the US. If you're the greatest nation in the world, can you show us what that means? xx

First: Thank you for your concern. I agree with your posts.

I have gone through many news media for the past few weeks reading all I can about our election and what George the seconds' view on all subjects. When I read your post I knew I saw something about his policy on GW. I couldn't find the one I read (about him pulling strings to keep scientists from reporting findings) but I did find this one. It should tell you what our problem is in getting anything done about global warming.

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2004/09/10/bush/index.html
Bush: Global warming is just hot air
The planet's getting hotter, ecosystems are going haywire, government scientists know it -- and still the president denies there's a problem. Guess which industry continues to fuel his campaign?

need I say more? We won't be able to do anything until 2008.