The world is only 6 thousand years old ...

[Telstra]

How can such a person be allowed to teach school kids ??

 

[kallipolis]

^Freedom of expression....people are entitled not to listen....freedom of choice.

 

[medic1]

^Damn! You are good.

 

[Telstra]

^Freedom of expression....people are entitled not to listen....freedom of choice.

Freedom to teach lies to school kids ???

 

[kallipolis]

Freedom to teach lies to school kids ???

Until some 500 years ago most of the people in Europe believed that the world is flat...that belief did not make the world flat....

Your right to disagree with an opinion ensures that all opinions are heard even, Creationist theories that you reject as nonsense.

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
~Thomas Paine

 

[FirmaFan]

Until some 500 years ago most of the people in Europe believed that the world is flat...that belief did not make the world flat....

And once it was found out the world wasn't flat, we did not continue to teach it to children.

Your right to disagree with an opinion ensures that all opinions are heard even, Creationist theories that you reject as nonsense.

This isn't about personal disagreement over differing opinions, this is about the teaching of falsehoods as fact to impressionable children who have neither the resources or an understanding of the subject to recognize the inaccuracy of the information. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression, like all freedoms, have limits. And the limits to those freedoms are imposed when demonstrable harm is brought about to others, and teaching young children creationism as fact is a demonstrable harm.

 

[Telstra]

^ thankyou.
I can't write well enough for kallipolis

 

[kallipolis]

And once it was found out the world wasn't flat, we did not continue to teach it to children.



This isn't about personal disagreement over differing opinions, this is about the teaching of falsehoods as fact to impressionable children who have neither the resources or an understanding of the subject to recognize the inaccuracy of the information. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression, like all freedoms, have limits. And the limits to those freedoms are imposed when demonstrable harm is brought about to others, and teaching young children creationism as fact is a demonstrable harm.

Creationist theories have as much right to be taught, as do other beliefs....this, despite me rejecting all Creationist ideas as utter nonsense...I support the right of all human beings to disseminate their understandings....when we deny anyone the right to freedom of expression, no matter what their opinion we have entered the realm of deciding that we are better equipped to decide for them....we gays had to face this fact of life until some forty years ago, when finally the medical establishment chose decided that homosexuality is not a mental health issue..

I support the right of Creationists to publish their opinions, and teach those theories in schools alongside Evolutionary Theory.......despite my considered opinion that Creationists theories are lunacy...

Freedom of expression is not about expressing opinions that we favour, or that appear rational...but of ensuring that even the eccentric religious fanatic is granted the fundamental human right to speak their mind..

I repeat the views of a radical English political reformer:

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
~Thomas Paine

 

[palbert]

Until some 500 years ago most of the people in Europe believed that the world is flat...that belief did not make the world flat....

And once it was found out the world wasn't flat, we did not continue to teach it to children.
...

The world isn't flat?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

Globes can't do justice to a moebius strip.

 

[FirmaFan]

Creationist theories have as much right to be taught, as do other beliefs....this, despite me rejecting all Creationist ideas as utter nonsense...I support the right of all human beings to disseminate their understandings....when we deny anyone the right to freedom of expression, no matter what their opinion we have entered the realm of deciding that we are better equipped to decide for them....we gays had to face this fact of life until some forty years ago, when finally the medical establishment chose decided that homosexuality is not a mental health issue..

I support the right of Creationists to publish their opinions, and teach those theories in schools alongside Evolutionary Theory.......despite my considered opinion that Creationists theories are lunacy...

Freedom of expression is not about expressing opinions that we favour, or that appear rational...but of ensuring that even the eccentric religious fanatic is granted the fundamental human right to speak their mind..

I repeat the views of a radical English political reformer:

I am not opposed to creationists speaking their minds all they want. But they must do so in the appropriate venues. That is true for everyone who wishes to exercise their freedoms of speech and expression. The freedom of speech and expression is NOT the freedom to say whatever you want, whenever you want, where ever you want. Evolution is taught in science classrooms as fact NOT because some evolutionary biologist wanted to exercise their freedom of speech and that is where it was chosen to be exercised. That is not why we teach evolution, so why should we grant creationism that permission? Evolution is taught as fact in the science classroom because observations were made, hypotheses were formed based upon those observations, falsifiable experiments were conducted, models were formed based upon the results which made predictions that could be further tested, scrutinized, peer-reviewed, refined, and developed into a well-substantiated scientific theory that has further been investigated and refined, and it was only after that process (which is still ongoing) that the subject of evolution was taught in the science classroom. What creationists (and you) seem to want is to skip over all of that and have creationism directly injected into the classroom to be taught as a competitive theory, justified only by a person's right to exercise freedom of expression. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Again, to every freedom there is a limit, and simply claiming to exercise the freedom of speech does not grant the freedom to teach creationism in a classroom.

 

[FirmaFan]

The world isn't flat?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

Globes can't do justice to a moebius strip.

Nope, the world isn't flat, and we know this by the enormous amount of demonstrable evidence that points to a spherical earth.

 

[kallipolis]

The world isn't flat?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

Globes can't do justice to a moebius strip.

Even the ancient Greek philosophers understood that the world is not flat.....

 

[kallipolis]

I am not opposed to creationists speaking their minds all they want. But they must do so in the appropriate venues. That is true for everyone who wishes to exercise their freedoms of speech and expression. The freedom of speech and expression is NOT the freedom to say whatever you want, whenever you want, where ever you want. Evolution is taught in science classrooms as fact NOT because some evolutionary biologist wanted to exercise their freedom of speech and that is where it was chosen to be exercised. That is not why we teach evolution, so why should we grant creationism that permission? Evolution is taught as fact in the science classroom because observations were made, hypotheses were formed based upon those observations, falsifiable experiments were conducted, models were formed based upon the results which made predictions that could be further tested, scrutinized, peer-reviewed, refined, and developed into a well-substantiated scientific theory that has further been investigated and refined, and it was only after that process (which is still ongoing) that the subject of evolution was taught in the science classroom. What creationists (and you) seem to want is to skip over all of that and have creationism directly injected into the classroom to be taught as a competitive theory, justified only by a person's right to exercise freedom of expression. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Again, to every freedom there is a limit, and simply claiming to exercise the freedom of speech does not grant the freedom to teach creationism in a classroom.

When we began imposing limits on freedom of expression we have decided that we know better, than others....that's a slippery slope heading dangerously towards totalitarian rule....no thanks....for I will make the choice....not some invisible face, deciding which films,or books I can watch/read, and which films/books I cannot watch/read....censorship leads to greater evils.....remember, until some forty years ago medical science persuaded society that homosexuality was a mental health issue....the science of that time was the accepted wisdom of the day....some science....some wisdom....

 

[FirmaFan]

When we began imposing limits on freedom of expression we have decided that we know better, than others....that's a slippery slope heading dangerously towards totalitarian rule....no thanks....for I will make the choice....not some invisible face, deciding which films,or books I can watch/read, and which films/books I cannot watch/read....censorship leads to greater evils.....remember, until some forty years ago medical science persuaded society that homosexuality was a mental health issue....the science of that time was the accepted wisdom of the day....some science....some wisdom....

Like it or not, freedoms have limits. Again, those limits are imposed when demonstrable harm is done. You seem to have this misconception that simply because I advocate limitations on what can be taught to children in a classroom, that I am saying those topics can never be discussed anywhere. That is not at all what I am saying. Repeating myself, creationists can discuss their beliefs all they want within the appropriate venues. And that is not a limitation I place on just creationism - everyone's exercise of free speech must be done within the appropriate venue. That isn't censorship. You also seem to be under the impression that it was a mere exercise in freedom of speech that brought about changes in views on things such as a flat-earth or the removal of homosexuality from the label of mental illness. It was science, reason, evidence, trialed though the exhaustive scientific process I outlined earlier that brought about those changes, not someone walking into a classroom and going against the accepted science of the time as an exercise in free speech. What is taught in the classroom is the results of scientific investigation, not the beginning of it. Again, we are talking about impressionable minds that have no idea about the topics being taught. Classrooms are to give children the basics, a fundamental understanding of the known principles of a topic. Only then can they go forward and investigate on their own, and maybe, perhaps add to, refine, revise, or possibly even completely overthrow the current understanding of a topic. But you can't expect that to happen without first providing them with a basic understanding of the topic they may eventually go out and investigate.

And to talk about a true slippery slope - if you are going to allow children to be taught creationism every time someone wants to invoke their freedom of expression, then absolutely no topic would or could be denied under that principle. If someone wants to discuss the most effective way of carrying out a school shooting in order to maximize casualties, would you allow such teaching because the teacher wanted to exercise their freedom of speech in that way? Or does the demonstrable harm negate that freedom?

 

[kallipolis]

Like it or not, freedoms have limits.

I'm never made to feel uncomfortable when reading Creationist theories.....despite me rejecting such theories as nonsense..

....the issue being discussed here is Creationist theory, not school kids planning mass murder of their teachers....

When children reach adult hood they will make up their own mind on the subject of Creationist theory, versus Evolutionary Theory...l

Freedom of expression permits all opinions to be heard...not just those that satisfies ones own understandings....

I repeat....let each person make their choices, when they reach an age when they can decide for themselves...meantime, if a school district elects to teach Creationist theories, alongside Evolutionary Theory that's fine with me for, the pupils have the opportunity to make their assessments...

There is a much more important principle at stake here, and that is the right of man to make mistakes, and learn from those mistakes...a fact of learning experience for every human person....especially those persons who believe that they know it all...and want the rest of the world to understand how right they are....

 

[TX-Beau]

You seem to be under the impression that there is "free speech" in American schools. There isn't. There is a whole long list of what can be taught, and what can't be taught, what can be read and what can't already in place. So, sorry, you're just wrong.

What you are advocating for is the constitutional fig leaf used by right wing fundamentalist wing-nuts in pursuit of theocracy, who have the EXPLICIT goal of denying everyone else freedom of everything except doing what they're told.

Creationism isn't an "opinion." it is an ERROR and willful ignorance on the part of people with a political agenda. IF in Greece you insist on teaching science classes with fables and lies that is your affair, but the rest of us are going to object. if you want to put the fables and lies in a theology class go for it, but pretending it in any way is equivalent to evolutionary theory in a science class is just making a stupid ass of ones' self.

The goal of Creationism is to spread control through religion, not to exercise free speech.

 

[FirmaFan]

....the issue being discussed here is Creationist theory, not school kids planning mass murder of their teachers....

No, the issue being discussed is what can be taught in a science classroom and by what standards are those permissions granted. Hint: it isn't the demand to exercise free speech that decides those topics.

When children reach adult hood they will make up their own mind on the subject of Creationist theory, versus Evolutionary Theory...l

The argument for equal time with regards to creationism is a tired old wedge tactic designed to attempt to inject creationism into the classroom without equal scrutiny of the facts that evolution has stood up against, and comes with a built in ability to claim victim-hood and violation of rights when denied equal time (like what you are doing). It's deceitful, dishonest, and would not be necessary if creationism had any merits whatsoever to stand on.

Oh, and the time for deciding which is correct, evolution or creationism, is not in the science classroom when children have no understanding of even the basic scientific concepts, when they don't yet even possess the tools necessary to evaluate them on their own merits. It's quite telling why you would approve of the teaching without merit varying topics to children too young to understand the validity of the concepts, as it's quite akin to indoctrination of religion. When you have a religious ideology that in no way pans out to the reality of the universe, the only way to propagate those ideas is to instill them into minds too young and too impressionable to know any better. It's what religion does, it's what creationism does, and it goes against everything the scientific process is based upon, and, as such, it belongs nowhere near a science classroom. There are other venues for such things.

 

[MassRuss]

Smetimes I believe we're going backwards in thinking. I went to public school in NJ in the 1950s, & Catholic Sunday school. Both the teachers & the nuns knew that earth was way older than 6000 years old, & the Darwin was right.

Never was anything even approaching the ignorance of creationism taught , or even mentioned.

 

[bankside]

Creationist theories have as much right to be taught, as do other beliefs....

Exactly correct. And of course the extent of that "right to be taught" is exactly nil, when it comes to beliefs as opposed to knowledge.

Beliefs can be preached, but only knowledge can be taught.

 

[Jacquemar]

I don't care if this is taught in religious schools, but my tax dollars are not going to pay for religious indoctrination in public schools.