Thoughts after Sandy Hook

[TX-Beau]

Like oh I don't know collective governmental ownership and administration of the distribution of fire safety?

 

[HenryReardon]

Like oh I don't know collective governmental ownership and administration of the distribution of fire safety?

Neither of which have anything to do with the means of production.

 

[opinterph]

… what I'd really love to see is an exorbitant tax on bullets.

It is not particularly difficult to manufacture your own bullets at home.

But 'police breaking down doors' is the next logical step when a country starts to slide down that slippery slope, is it not?

Do you concur with the ACLU’s opinion regarding Section 215 (and other elements in Title II) of the USA Patriot Act?

Surveillance Under the USA PATRIOT Act​

 

[bankside]

Sometimes the world's media reports on a country to help the locals understand it. And sometimes the questions foreigners ask as they try to make sense of that country can also help a country understand itself. Perhaps to see itself without the veneer of its own assumptions and givens.

Expats describe the moment they realized they weren’t in Canada any more.
This sacred text explains why the US can't kick the gun habit
The Newtown massacre - Fake tears
The gun control that works: no guns
Newtown Massacre - The Rifle and the American Identity (in French)
How is a conspiracy theory born?
Gun debate also a battle over the past. (Paywall/Library subscription. Gist: Skeptical of US revisionist history on meaning of second amendment and court bias in Heller.)
Culture of personal violence to blame.

It's astonishing, this idea that people need guns to free themselves from governments of their own creation. And that by not having them under the coffee table they were somehow less free than people subjected to the Second Amendment. If you were to suggest this, in any number of countries around the world, you'd be laughed at by free people until you understand they are utterly unafraid of their governments.

It's astonishing that anyone could believe the idea that a chicken in every pot and a gun under every pillow will make any country a better, safer, more secure place.

And it's laughable that a bunch of Americans with their guns could shoot down a north korean nuke, or take out a plane full of terrorists.

 

[Kulindahr]

I just sent this to Senator Wyden for his consideration:



After several thousand pages worth of reading concerning the Second Amendment, I've come to the conclusion that there is a way past the reactionary NRA faction's obstinacy about what Congress can do concerning gun control. As the Amendment stands, the NRA and Gun Owners of America's most strident interpretation is correct -- but the Amendment does not stand alone. I was reminded of this in principle when perusing the remarks of Justice Souter in his commencement address at Harvard, specifically that no piece of the Constitution may be taken in isolation.

Here is where the key lies:

"The Congress shall have power... To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia,...."
--Art I Sec 8.

It seems plain to me that setting restrictions on what firearms may be carried for common use, i.e. for keeping and bearing, comes under the authority given for "organizing... and disciplining, the militia". This would cover one of the items of current immediate attention, namely the size of magazines for semiautomatic weapons. Under the militia concept in the eighteenth century, arms not considered appropriate for common use were not banned for citizens, but were required to be stored in appointed places for arms for the militia; specifically, they were stored in arsenals under the command of the militia's officers. Congress power certainly extends to defining magazines which contain more than, say, twenty rounds as not appropriate for keeping and bearing for everyday purposes -- and to require those who own such to have them stored at an appropriate facility, under lock and key, for use at that facility (or in competitions).

We have today no arsenals, for the simple reason that since the introduction of the National Guard as an organized militia, our unorganized or common militia has lost the habit of training, and communities since roughly the time of the Civil War have ceased organizing citizens' militias. But we have a somewhat comparable institution, something our forefathers didn't have, in the form of the gun club, shooting club, or shooting range, where facilities generally exist where firearms and/or accessories may be stored under lock and key for the use of their owners at those facilities.

Thus the path to follow would seem to be thus: that Congress, under its authority to organize and discipline the militia, specify that any magazines of more than twenty rounds must be stored at a gun club, shooting club, or shooting range, available to the owner as described above. Congress might also appropriate some funds for zero-interest loans to such organizations to provide storage means if such are lacking.


This would be very hard for LaPierre to fight, because it rests solidly in the militia tradition he supposedly defends.

 

[bankside]

in the US, at least, talking about repealing the 2nd Amendment instead of regulations seems akin to advocating abstinence-only education instead of condoms.

It was once that way about the 3/5ths rule.


Except getting rid of it wouldn't actually oblige the government to destroy everyone's guns. You could still see some guns used and kept for many purposes. Most countries have nothing equivalent to it, and they have stable legal frameworks that put guns in the hands of people who actually need or use them.

But it would now be a debate about where the proper balance rests, and pro-gun people would be obliged to bring the same kind of facts and analysis that gun-control advocates now do in a vain attempt to advance a reasonable agenda. There would have to be negotiation and compromise, and recognition that both sides have to be called to account.

But because of the language in the Amendment, the gun nuts can just stick their fingers in their ears and say "LALALLALALA 2ND AMENDMENT LALLALALA."

 

[JayHawk]

The Huffington post has a list of all the fatal shootings since Sandy Hook... so here is your list of eight days of death in the US...go to huff post each is a linked story.

 

[Rolyo85]

And were the freedoms you gave up to achieve that goal worth it? I think not.
I also know, from a lifelong friend whose lived their for 35 years, Oz is already pretty socialist, so it was
probably an easier sell that it would be here in the US wher we still place some value on our freedoms

The freedoms they gave up? Like the freedom to shoot each other. Oh noez!

Do you feel very free? Because I don't feel you're very free.

 

[HenryReardon]

The freedoms they gave up? Because I don't feel you're very free.

The most important one of all—the freedom to live one's life without government interference.

 

[Rolyo85]

Empty words. TAXES are government interference. Government interferes, that's why it's there. If you feel that living in a safe environment where mass shootings are a once-a-decade exception, rather than a weekly norm, is government interference, then I welcome it.

- - - Updated - - -

Empty words. TAXES are government interference. Government interferes, that's why it's there. If you feel that living in a safe environment where mass shootings are a once-a-decade exception, rather than a weekly norm, is government interference, then I welcome it.

 

[Jack Springer]

in the US, at least, talking about repealing the 2nd Amendment instead of regulations seems akin to advocating abstinence-only education instead of condoms.

loki, you're being too sensible man.

 

[HenryReardon]

. Government interferes, it.

But it isn't supposed to do so. Goverment has only three legitimate functions:

1. Provide a standing army to protect us from without;
2. Provide a police force to protect us from each other;
3. Provide a system of courts so that we may seek peaceful redress with each other.

Period.

It's time we restored one of those original US flags - the ones with the rattlesnake and the logo "Don't Tread on Me"

 

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, I disagree

 

[Ben1]

 

[bankside]

legalizing gay marriage is largely a state issue that wouldn't require a constitutional amendment... a completely different beast than trying to repeal the 2nd Amendment (and presumably repealing the 4th Amendment if you want cops breaking down doors to get all existing guns off the streets)

we might need that fence on the Mexican border built too. and probably another one up north.

That fence would be to the great benefit of Canada; the gun problem is a one-way problem, for us.

I like the idea of a gun buyback, but the fact remains that there are legions of people who will absolutely not, under no circumstances, surrender their guns. and I'm not sure we've reached the point where we want police breaking down doors and confiscating legally-purchased guns against the owners' will.

for all the comparisons to slavery and the like, as if the 14th Amendment happened by good will and magic, bear in mind that it took the bloodiest war in US history to resolve that dispute.

even after the Civil War, it took the Reconstruction Acts and Congress repealing Habeas Corpus to suspend the Supreme Court to get it ratified.

I really do think the problem on your hands is so debilitating that if it requires all those measures once again, then it would be the lesser evil. There is something wrong with the mentality as to how people should relate to one another in daily live via the gun that is malignant in the same way it is malignant to think of keeping others as human property. It can't coexist in one country in tension with better values. And the death toll from the madness equals a civil-war-death-toll every 10 or 15 years anyway.

If there is a steep price to be paid for a sane future, I don't know what else to say but that watching children die at Newtown must motivate people to escape their delusion and complacency about the right to unnecessary weaponry.

To decide that whatever else the future might hold, it's just fine to be consistent with the principles and policies and constitutional doctrines that people considered okay on December 13, is a bitter snub to the memory of children who should have been sufficiently defended by mere virtue of waking up that morning and going to school under the peaceful sky.

 

[andysayshi]

And were the freedoms you gave up to achieve that goal worth it? I think not.
I also know, from a lifelong friend whose lived their for 35 years, Oz is already pretty socialist, so it was
probably an easier sell that it would be here in the US wher we still place some value on our freedoms

Haha, oh Henry, you're just like my grumpy old grandpa at Christmas dinner. Hilarious.

Here in Oz we enjoy true universal healthcare, great medical outcomes, great life expectancy (3 years better than the US), the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the OECD, low levels of crime, especially gun crime, rank Number 2 on the UN's "world's happiest country" index, have the world's best city according to many international surveys like this one from CNN Travel, and have four of the World's Most Liveable Cities (Melbourne is No 1) according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Global Liveability Report..

So comrade, despite your fantasies that we Australians are trapped in a Socialist dictatorship, slaving in the factories for our dear leaders, we're doing just fine, thanks.

 

[Rolyo85]

Obama responds to petitions:

 

[HenryReardon]

Haha, oh Henry, you're just like my grumpy old grandpa at Christmas dinner. Hilarious.

Here in Oz we enjoy true universal healthcare, great medical outcomes, great life expectancy (3 years better than the US), the lowest debt to GDP ratio in the OECD, low levels of crime, especially gun crime, rank Number 2 on the UN's "world's happiest country" index, have the world's best city according to many international surveys like this one from CNN Travel, and have four of the World's Most Liveable Cities (Melbourne is No 1) according to the Economist Intelligence Unit's Global Liveability Report..

So comrade, despite your fantasies that we Australians are trapped in a Socialist dictatorship, slaving in the factories for our dear leaders, we're doing just fine, thanks.

Gee, you sound more than a bit defensive tonight. Trouble in paradise? LOL

 

[andysayshi]

Not at all, Henry. Just keeping the truth on the table.

Right now I'm off to do the last of my Christmas shopping, then I'm heading down to the beach for a swim - it's absolutely perfect weather today. Not the Christmas you northerners are used to, I know, but we love it this way!

Regardless of the mud we sling at one another around here, Henry, may I genuinely wish you and your loved ones a truly wonderful Christmas. Be of good cheer!

 

[Kulindahr]

But it isn't supposed to do so. Goverment has only three legitimate functions:

1. Provide a standing army to protect us from without;
2. Provide a police force to protect us from each other;
3. Provide a system of courts so that we may seek peaceful redress with each other.

Period.

It's time we restored one of those original US flags - the ones with the rattlesnake and the logo "Don't Tread on Me"

Wow. So much for the claim that conservatives use logic and reason: any thinking person can see that your "three legitimate functions" are only one.