Transgendered/homosexual issues(somewhat long post, sorry.)

[Evsann]

I am at a bit of a loss here. I have begun to come to terms with my identity issues in a way that won't lead to me ending my life. Long story short, I have no interest in surgery because I do not want to put my family through that. Not to mention that in my mind, it would make me no more a woman than theI was day that I was born. Over the years I been in a few long relationships with woman that ultimately failed because in the end, even though I was atrracted to them, I never really felt comfortable in the role that they expected me to fill for them.

I have been considering trying a homosexual relationship. Though I have never found men physically attractive, I find the idea of being loved or even desired by one extremely appealing. Sex was never important to me. I have often said that if I did not have the physiological urge to do it I would just forgo the act completly. So the idea of sleeping with a man does make mee feel any more uncomfortable than having sex with a woman did. In fact the only thing that I worry about is HIV.

This has less to do with my ignorance on the gay community than it does with the death of my gay cousin from aids. I have no idea on the numbers but I just keep hearing that homosexuals run a really high risk of contracting it.

I guess what I am asking is, am I being realistic? I do not crossdress. I do not act overly flamboyant nor do I really go out of my way to make other people view me in the way that I view myself. I just want to be made to feel the way that I have always felt inside. Would I really have a chance at a meaningful relationship or am I just setting myself up for a serious dissapointment?

I would imagine that a man who loves men would have a hard time getting close to a man that hated everything manly about himself.

 

[Marvels]

Evsann, I think a relationship should mean something for both parties.

The things that aren't important to you may be the very things that your potential partner is looking for, something I am very sure that you are aware of, as indicated by your last message.

But not being attracted to a man who'd potentially date you but letting him do it either way? Just so you'd feel comfortable about yourself? To me, no offense, to me that kind of makes you look like you lost your silver spoon and you want it back.


P.S. Sorry, you shouldn't take advise from a bitter person.

 

[Christopher123]

I have a friend of mine (I'll leave his name out of it) who is absolutely beautiful. I mean we're talking perfect-face, too-pretty-to-be-a-boy beautiful. Everywhere he goes he gets gawked at by both men and women and has been told more than once that his face looks like it was 'created' and 'sculpted' by an artist. He has long black hair (just past his shoulders) a perfect freakin little body (with the most beautiful legs I've ever seen on a man) and he's quite feminine. Not femmy as in he does the limp-wristed thing and talks all 'gay', I mean he's just very quiet, very soft-spoken, has a soft little voice and moves softly as well, wears cute little clothes and has done quite a bit of modeling. Both men and women have been envious of him because he's got - well, I'll use a female friend's exact words - "Looks that women would kill to have." Beautiful ice-blue eyes, perfect lips, perfect eyebrows, a perfect little nose, etc etc etc, yada yada yada.

The problem? He hates himself. He hates his body. He wants to be a woman.

Now, I don't quite understand this reasoning, but I do my best to talk to him about it and, as you now know from my other post, I've got a female friend going through the same thing. It's very hard to advise them of anything, which means it would be hard to advise YOU. But I think this post and this thread might (or at least I hope) help me to understand.

My point in telling you about him is to let you know you're not alone in the way you think. My friend is gay and thankfully in a relationship with an awesome guy who nurtures and protects him because he's very vulnerable to the outside world. The reason he does the modeling is because, as he says, "Being under those lights and in front of those cameras is the only place in the world I feel beautiful."

Women: he has been with one woman off and on for years, but - gads, how do I explain this? It's not because he's "sexually" attracted to her. Another reason I'm telling you about him - what you've said reminded me of him and the way he tends to think. So I asked him once, a few years back (other than his boyfriend, he also looks to me for comfort, his boyfriend and I are the only two besides this female I'm speaking of that he'll talk to about this), "If you don't find her sexually attractive, then why do you sleep with her sometimes?"

He told me it's because she is beautiful and he's spent his life wishing he could look like her (yes, this is someone very close to him that he's known since he was a child) and trying to be like her and he likes to touch her to admire her body. But it's not necessarily a sexual attraction.

So am I sort of on target in understanding you (and maybe my female friend) by sort of understanding what this friend of mine is feeling? I don't really know, which is why I'm telling you this. I'm trying really hard to understand what you are going through because people I care about are going through the same thing. And I hope others jump in here and post their thoughts or maybe there are other men here going through your same dilemma that will speak up as well. I'd really like to understand this whole thing a little better.

 

[Evsann]

Evsann, I think a relationship should mean something for both parties.

The things that aren't important to you may be the very things that your potential partner is looking for, something I am very sure that you are aware of, as indicated by your last message.

But not being attracted to a man who'd potentially date you but letting him do it either way? Just so you'd feel comfortable about yourself? To me, no offense, to me that kind of makes you look like you lost your silver spoon and you want it back.


P.S. Sorry, you shouldn't take advise from a bitter person.

I am aware of that. Which is why I am considering this and not doing it at the moment.

I could never bring myself to use someone. Which is why I would be upfront from the start. Furthermore I have always believed that we love people, not their bodies. I am quite sure that I could care for a man in same way that I could I woman. It is all based on personalities. Of course, I have no experience to base this on. Which is why I am asking you guys.

Also, are yo saying that there are no other attraction than physical ones? I loved every bit of my last girlfriend but I can tell you that the absolute last thing that ever crossed my mind was her body.

Also, please clearify the silver spoon coment. I don't get it.

I do apologize for making this sound like It would be one sided. I have had best friends that I have cared for as much as I have girlfriends and honesly the only thing that kept that from becoming anything more is the fact that they were heterosexual. Once again, the level of closeness was not hinged on their gender. That has just never really meant that much me because of the way that I have always felt inside. I am sure that a few of them would have wanted to kick my ass if they knew how they made me feel sometimes.

 

[Christopher123]

But not being attracted to a man who'd potentially date you but letting him do it either way? Just so you'd feel comfortable about yourself? To me, no offense, to me that kind of makes you look like you lost your silver spoon and you want it back.

I think he's just trying to figure out where he belongs. Believe me, I know people who say these same things (as indicated by my posts today) and it doesn't seem to be quite that simple. This has to be very confusing for them. I mean hell, it was confusing enough for us to wonder why the hell we weren't "normal", although, per my sig, normal is in the eye of the beholder and a standard that was set by society.

In the infamous words of Booger: "And who decides the standards?"

Ya know? Just because "they" say it's wrong, why does it make "them" right?

 

[Evsann]

I have a friend of mine (I'll leave his name out of it) who is absolutely beautiful. I mean we're talking perfect-face, too-pretty-to-be-a-boy beautiful. Everywhere he goes he gets gawked at by both men and women and has been told more than once that his face looks like it was 'created' and 'sculpted' by an artist. He has long black hair (just past his shoulders) a perfect freakin little body (with the most beautiful legs I've ever seen on a man) and he's quite feminine. Not femmy as in he does the limp-wristed thing and talks all 'gay', I mean he's just very quiet, very soft-spoken, has a soft little voice and moves softly as well, wears cute little clothes and has done quite a bit of modeling. Both men and women have been envious of him because he's got - well, I'll use a female friend's exact words - "Looks that women would kill to have." Beautiful ice-blue eyes, perfect lips, perfect eyebrows, a perfect little nose, etc etc etc, yada yada yada.

The problem? He hates himself. He hates his body. He wants to be a woman.

Now, I don't quite understand this reasoning, but I do my best to talk to him about it and, as you now know from my other post, I've got a female friend going through the same thing. It's very hard to advise them of anything, which means it would be hard to advise YOU. But I think this post and this thread might (or at least I hope) help me to understand.

My point in telling you about him is to let you know you're not alone in the way you think. My friend is gay and thankfully in a relationship with an awesome guy who nurtures and protects him because he's very vulnerable to the outside world. The reason he does the modeling is because, as he says, "Being under those lights and in front of those cameras is the only place in the world I feel beautiful."

Women: he has been with one woman off and on for years, but - gads, how do I explain this? It's not because he's "sexually" attracted to her. Another reason I'm telling you about him - what you've said reminded me of him and the way he tends to think. So I asked him once, a few years back (other than his boyfriend, he also looks to me for comfort, his boyfriend and I are the only two besides this female I'm speaking of that he'll talk to about this), "If you don't find her sexually attractive, then why do you sleep with her sometimes?"

He told me it's because she is beautiful and he's spent his life wishing he could look like her (yes, this is someone very close to him that he's known since he was a child) and trying to be like her and he likes to touch her to admire her body. But it's not necessarily a sexual attraction.

So am I sort of on target in understanding you (and maybe my female friend) by sort of understanding what this friend of mine is feeling? I don't really know, which is why I'm telling you this. I'm trying really hard to understand what you are going through because people I care about are going through the same thing. And I hope others jump in here and post their thoughts or maybe there are other men here going through your same dilemma that will speak up as well. I'd really like to understand this whole thing a little better.

Yeah I can definitly relate. Though I am not THAT attractive, I am often told by women and men how attractive I am. They might as well be complimenting my car because I feel like I am just driving this body around.

And during my relationships, I do find myself envying my girl, in all aspects.

And finally, that is the way I am. I am not limp wristy or anything. I am just me.

 

[Christopher123]

Yeah I can definitly relate. Though I am not THAT attractive, I am often told by women and men how attractive I am. They might as well be complimenting my car because I feel like I am just driving this body around.

And during my relationships, I do find myself envying my girl, in all aspects.

And finally, that is the way I am. I am not limp wristy or anything. I am just me.

I just wish I could understand a little better. I mean, I respect and love some women (as friends) but I've never looked at them in an envious way. In fact, in a joking way with my friends, I've said, "Damn, I'm glad I ain't no chick!"

Just kidding with them, of course. But I'm really glad I'm not.

Let's see if we get any other answers

 

[Marvels]

Evs: I'm not saying that sex is the only factor. Believe me, I'm a virgin (by choice, mind you). What worries me for you is that, I think it's wonderful that you see love through layers, and not just skin, but how many people share the same vision as you do? Not a lot.

And if the last thing that crossed your mind when you had a relationship was her body may be a compliment to some, but it could be a hell of an insult to others.

By saying silver spoon, I meant that you lost your comfort zone, and that i thought the chances of you hurting some other person's feelings just to get it back was quite possible.

Oh, and one last thing: feeling the same for your friends and your girlfriends? Don't you think that there's something a little 'off' there?

Chris: Yeah, but no better place to start sharing opinions that at the very beginning. He asked for it, and I gave it to him. And by the way, about your friend, models are much more prone to insecurity than the average person. Trust me, I was bulimic. What makes models comfortable? Stop. The. Complements. Maybe that would get your friend out of his shell

 

[Christopher123]

Chris: Yeah, but no better place to start sharing opinions that at the very beginning. He asked for it, and I gave it to him. And by the way, about your friend, models are much more prone to insecurity than the average person. Trust me, I was bulimic. What makes models comfortable? Stop. The. Complements. Maybe that would get your friend out of his shell

Yeah, but everywhere he goes, he gets them. He's definitely not something you see every day. Like him and I were in the grocery store together a couple of weeks ago and two girls that were standing by the deli were checking him out. And one of them goes, "Oh my gawd, that's the sweetest and most beautiful thing I think I've ever seen!"

And the other one goes, "I want that!"

See what I mean?

I just kinda rolled my eyes and pulled him along. He's not flattered at all by this. I mean some guys would eat it up. But he wishes they would stop.

And for Evs, I'm curious - you said, "I just want to be made to feel the way that I have always felt inside."

I'm wondering something just out of curiosity - how is it you've felt inside? Do you mean you've always felt 'feminine' and if you have sex with a man you might feel what women feel? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

 

[Marvels]

Chris: At least your friend hasn't done anything drastic. But hey, a slong as the two of you never EVER talk about looks, then he should be fine. Of course, you could ask him what he thought was unattractive with himself (I could tell you it's a body image objectification disorder, but I don't have a degree), then maybe you could like, go deeper into what's really bothering him. Of course, that'd open all sorts of drama that no one'd really want.

 

[Christopher123]

Chris: At least your friend hasn't done anything drastic. But hey, a slong as the two of you never EVER talk about looks, then he should be fine. Of course, you could ask him what he thought was unattractive with himself (I could tell you it's a body image objectification disorder, but I don't have a degree), then maybe you could like, go deeper into what's really bothering him. Of course, that'd open all sorts of drama that no one'd really want.

I don't mind. He's my friend and I love him and I'm one of the few people he trusts.

Believe me, him and I have been down all of those roads you mentioned. And I get upset for him when he's got people throwing those comments at him.

Oh well, don't wanna hijack Evs thread. But anyway, I'm slacking today and need to get my butt to work. Thanks for the advice and comments

 

[Evsann]

To Marvels: I see what you mean now. And for the record I was never offended, like you said, I asked for it. I will tell you this though, there are many different types of people out there and I doubt that I would want to be with anyone that would feel insulted by me taking more interest in them on the inside than on the outside. That would just be my sign to look elsewhere. Just like during high school when girls would want to go out with me just to show me off, but would have absolutely no interest in anything I had to say. Different people.

Also, on the feelings for friends and girlfriends, what I was pointing out that feeling for a man what I have felt for a woman would not be a huge hump to get over. I will say that there is nothing wrong with holding them on the same level, in different places in my opinion. I have friends that would die for me and have showed me that on one occasion or another. Also, I have never been in my comfort zone. Ever. I have been in a constant state of damage control my entire life. I take my joy when I can get it but it does not come often enough to ever be expected.


To Chris: I did not mean during sex. I am not some fetishist. In my head I just see the way that I have treated woman in the past, made women feel in the past, and even held them in the past. I did all of this because I loved them but I have to say that I found myself really envious. I really just want to feel the way that they felt.

I know that I am fucked up. I know that I have a tendency at times to become detatched from reality. This is why I have been trying to find a group of gay people to talk to. I want to gauge how feasible this is. The few that I know see me struggle and know how long that I have been empty and hateful of myself and that the only reason that I have not ended my life is that I do not want to hurt my mother like so many others before. They are not going to tell me that I am being stupid or that I need to take my head out of my ass and be realistic. In their eyes, anything would be an improvement.

You guys don't know me. You have no reason to hold anything back.

 

[Marvels]

Hmm, you look for advice and you come across a really good guy (Chris) and a clinically insane one (myself).

Now that we have the possibility of insensitivity out of the way, let's focus on your second statement. Holding friends and potential life partners is an admirable thing to do, but if believe me this, life partners would tend to expect that you'll see them in a higher pedestal than you will your friends.

Example, those girls who wanted to show you off? Happens to me on a weekly basis, thing is, they aren't looking for a relationship. But you are. It's great if you'r e interested in what they have to say, but you also need to see that a one way physical attraction between you and your potential life partner could only lead to disaster. You could lvoe each other yes, but you can't expect to keep showing her/him your love symbolically.

There's just no point excaping the fact that sex is a part of a relationship. And unless you're gonna end up with a gay priest (no offense to anyone, I'm Catholic myself), then odds are there's going to be a little pressure regarding that issue. So if you don't want any sex, or are physically unattracted to anyone, then what do you need a relationship for? If your friends love you, then stay with them. At least they won't occasionally hint that they want you in their bed. When sober at least.

 

[Evsann]

I suppose that I might have been a bit misleading in downplaying sex. It has never been a driving force but I sometimes enjoy the intamacy.

As in, casual sex in my eyes is just a small physically appealing sensation that is followed by me feeing dirty on the inside and out. While the intamacy that often leads up to and follows sex with someone you care about makes the act a lot more paletable.

I suppose the long and short of it is this. I want to be myself in a relationship. I no longer want to compromise who I am in order to keep someone else happy.

I can only hope that I find someone with whom to feel this way. I don't need to be validated, I am just one of those people who don't do well on their own.

Thanks for the observations. I will more than likely stick around this place.

 

[Christopher123]

To Chris: I did not mean during sex. I am not some fetishist. In my head I just see the way that I have treated woman in the past, made women feel in the past, and even held them in the past. I did all of this because I loved them but I have to say that I found myself really envious. I really just want to feel the way that they felt.

Well, I think I can understand that. For as much as it's possible. But I don't know that feeling what women have felt - if you even can - is gonna do you any good.

I think you need to really 'sit down' with yourself and be honest with yourself about this. I'm not saying you haven't already done that. Again, I'm trying really hard to understand this because of what my friend is going through. I really wish I could advise you better, but the most I can do is learn from you. If that makes any sense.

 

[Christopher123]

Thanks for the observations. I will more than likely stick around this place.

And you should

 

[Evsann]

Well, I think I can understand that. For as much as it's possible. But I don't know that feeling what women have felt - if you even can - is gonna do you any good.

I think you need to really 'sit down' with yourself and be honest with yourself about this. I'm not saying you haven't already done that. Again, I'm trying really hard to understand this because of what my friend is going through. I really wish I could advise you better, but the most I can do is learn from you. If that makes any sense.

Yeah, this is why I never expected, and for the most part still don't expect to ever hit 30. I am sure that I will kill myself by then. The damage is already done. I can never really expect to be happy and there is a part of me that feels like this is one last desperate lunge for peace. I have never felt this far from hope before.

I am just hoping that I find what I am looking for. I figure, what is the worst that can happen? At least I will know what it is like as opposed to waking up every morning with the same fantasy that may or may not even realistic.

 

[Christopher123]

Yeah, this is why I never expected, and for the most part still don't expect to ever hit 30. I am sure that I will kill myself by then. The damage is already done.

Please don't say that. Damage can be repaired. If I thought that way every time I felt I did damage, I would have been 6 feet under a long time ago.

You just need to find your balance. Give it time. You will find it. And in the meantime we'll be here to listen.

 

[Smitho]

Hi Evsann,

I should say before I write this, that I am not transgendered, and have only a limited knowledge of afew friends who are, so please feel free to disregard what I say.

But is there any way, that before looking for a relationship, either man or woman, you should try and investigate your identity, and I mean as it starting to dress as a woman, (or do you do that already?) you say that you are not interested in surgery, but how far have you gone in cross dressing, never, occasional, always etc? and may be this would change your outlook, and possibly your expectations of eventual surgery?

Take care and good luck,

 

[Marvels]

So then I must ask, who are you more comfortable with? And in what role are you most at ease?

Oh, and don't kill yourself. It's a terribly common way to die.