transgendered people

[Hard Luck]

we belong because we're people who suffer the same sorrows, the same pains, and the same drama. I mean, all people are connected through our struggles. What's the real difference between someone who's fighting for gay rights and someone who's fighting for poverty reduction

Well, that's precisely my point. We are united via our struggles, but that makes us united with many other groups as well. Why not gays and people of color? Why not gays and jews?

Why gays and transgendered? Simply because there's a sexual component? I find that reasoning absurd.

 

[luminum]

I think they're fine. They're just like anyone else.

I believe we're connected because we're both groups that deal with orientations that are considered "unnatural" and we're being treated as if we are. As LGBs, we're treated unfairly because other people think that loving someone of the same sex is unnatural and disgusting. Trans people get treated the same way because people thinl they're insane for not feeling adjusted to their born sex and gender role. We're both being treated unfairly because of something that others think is immoral when it's our private business and it's consensual between any individuals involved.

People fighting racism is different in a way, because they are fighting hatred based on a physical characteristic. You can't question whether someone really is one ethnicity or another. You can't really argue against someone being black or latino.

 

[elle]

1. Would I be correct to presume from your posts that what you have said is that you do take hormones to otherwise alter your appearance, and that in all areas of your life you live as a female but made the decision not to have gender reassignment surgery?

2. Aside from the physical reasons you mentioned, does having a homosexual sexual orientation also influence your decision to not have gender reassignment surgery?

3. Do you have any interest in all, in your desire to live totally as a female, any interest in living an otherwise heterosexual relationship? (This is rather an obtuce or obscure question, but I guess the relationship focused on in the Crying Game is kind of in the back of my mind. Where the relationship on the part of the heterosexual man required some psychological adjusting on his part. That is, I don't think he ever felt his sexual orientation changed, but he was willing to question the nature of love. So I'm wondering if you open yourself up to flirting or becoming involved with heterosexual men in that way or if you limit yourself only to male male relationships?

I guess I'm trying here to get a handle on the nature of your personal identification with yourself, as female or male, or as in the quote I posted by Dhillon it's because you do not identity as either being distinctly male or female? (Note: I don't mean to imply by this any sort of gender conflict or ambivalence.)

First i must say I'm starting to enjoy this thread and all the post in it!
Second, you really don't ever have to worry about me in those terms i'm always more than willing to share especially with those who have interest.

So lets see...
#1) yes, that is pretty much it.
i do live as a female & people know me as such, but if we are going to have more than passing accquaintence i will let you in on it/
I have recently just started hormones not really to alter any features (as that takes months of use to even begin to take affect) but more so to deal with testosterone and its mental effects -i was kind of being driven crazy with the male urges of testosterone and the conflict between my very female brain...some of the physical effects have helped me, but more so mentally.

I was pretty passable before anyway...i mean as i put it
-i never really grew out of that infant phase where people mistake you for a boy a girl...i guess i was always pretty (i don't mean it in a vain way its just sort of conditionally -if that makes any sense)
i just sort of knew who and what i was meant to be because my body showed it without ever needing outside influence...which in a lot of ways made it easier because i have been living transgendered since i was about 17.

i just think some TS people have a hatred or strong dislike for their given body, i was blessed to not feel as such.
I feel as though i could one day get a more refined version of a sex change but i don't plan on it and really doubt that i would ever...i think i will ride this vessel out


#2) i guess i don't really define myself as having a homosexual orientation, i have only ever dated straight men who considered themselves so.
I identify with a lot of gay men in the sense that i just feel a general ease with them & i just really love gay men & women too & support them so much, i guess it is a kinship that i cannot explain but if i had to, i suppose i would define myself as straight.

(oddly enough all the straight guys i have dated have encouraged me to knot have reassignment surgery)
i say straight as in they dated/slept with girls before and after me, some had other TS experience ...others i was their first.

I'll be the first one to say all of this defining of ones self can get very confusing, but its reality and i support anyone's reality...but i too get confused by guys who live as girls and then want to marry girls and so forth i mean humans are complex and just because i might be left of center doesn't mean that i get it

#3) like i mentioned i have actually only ever dated hetero guys and as far as i know they all considered me woman, maybe not female but a girl & i relate to guys in a very womanly way, i guess always have...even my dad from an early age,
I always felt like his little girl which was weird i guess but he played into it too & so did my mom and that sort of unquestioning facilitation is rare but has given me so much.

The surprising thing with hetero guys is its all about the way something is presented to them, in my experience.
If they know the truth even if its not what they set out looking for and are not lied to or deceived they are surprisingly able to embrace a TS woman who knows who she is and carries herself with pride.

I know that my physical appearance is probably a big help with that leap for them...my entire life has been about a lot of the physical and the bridge between (i'm also bi racial black/white) and men being visual creatures i know that sometimes its easy for them to view me how they want to...and i'm cool with that as long as they know its based in honesty, I don't hide it but i don't flaunt it...
it is what it is and we move from there without shame just truth and belief
- i mean you make your own reality & the rest is just confidence, because really what does anyone know?

the thing about the crying game was the guy didn't know at first and i just hate that sort of action...i understand wanting someone to see you for who you really are but you have to be realistic...
if you don't you can never expect anything from another person truly

I do have the urge to marry and even raise kids...i guess the reality of that could take many forms but...the thing is i'm more feminine/girl like than most of my girl friends...i've always had a female brain and i think that is the biggest sexual organ so...


thanks for asking
(its 3 in the morning and i had a bit too much wine so if this all runs together or makes no sense forgive me)

 

[elle]

I was somewhat surprised, though, that due to you not having undergone gender reassignment surgery, the heterosexual men in your life have been as open and understanding and didn't become caught up as a result in questioning their own sexuality.

You know sometimes it surprises me too, sometimes though i think you just have to be open to letting people surprise you.

Having said that, i do want to say their are varying degrees & resons of/for their ability to accept or support it, i just know i have been pretty lucky.

 

[elle]

Hey, I'm a trans. FTM. I think the reason some of us don't come out is because of the same reasons the rest of the GLB community doesn't come out. People are confused about us as LGBT people and aren't tolerate. They don't know enough about us and it's hard to educate people when you are afraid of getting hurt. I think there's a fear of dating us because people feel as if their sexual orientation must change (Lesbians dating transguys fear they are now straight. Straight girls dating transguys fearing they are lesbians. Straight guys dating transgirls fearing they are gay, etc. because of the idea that sexual orientation is connected JUST to 'genitalia') and that because of how we feel about ourselves that will ruin the relationship, etc. Treat us as I see myself, that's the biggest thing we want.

...

 

[Fallen1984]

I have two good friends who I loved very much. That would seem to follow, seeing as they are my friends.

They essentially live as/look like men, but both consider themselves genderqueer and don't hide that they are trans (both are pre-op btw).

I don't (have to) "approve of" them or (need to) say that they are good people. They're my friends, and I support however they live their lives and honestly don't think much of it.

And while I don't seek out trans people and wouldn't be attracted to someone who was/had been or lived as a woman, I remember thinking that one of my friends was cute before I knew she was a she who wanted to be a he. And I still think he's cute. And awesome. Not for me, but I know someone will be lucky to have him one day.

 

[XLeatherX]

I don't agree with the idea that you can really change a male or female body into the opposite gender with hormones, psycho therapy, and surgery.

You're cosmetically altering genitals to make something that resembles and barely functions or passes as a penis or vagina. It's not a big deal that therapy/hormones/SRS don't really change a person into the opposite gender. Even if people want to think that they are passing or are the opposite gender simply because they get all, some, or none of this done.

I’ve never felt so effortlessly masculine as I did talking to an FTM, who wanted to be a man, and was hairy like a man, but so obviously, so tangibly, was not a man, and never would be. When men say they feel like women inside, they may identify with certain female traits, mannerisms, and behaviors and sentiments, but they really have no idea what being a woman feels like. In a sense, it goes back to the idea of–how do they know what a woman feels like inside?

I think part of my aversion to this is the irreversibility of it. I mean, once your sexual organs are gone, they’re gone. That’s the end of that. You can’t change your mind. You can come to regret the decision, but there’s not a thing you can do about it.

There are some people that are not happy after their surgery for many reasons. Some think it will solve all their problems but nothing could be farther from the truth. If they cannot adjust to life before surgery they are not going to adjust after. Then too there are some that fall through the cracks and are probably not TS to begin with, or at least not likely candidates for the surgery but get it done anyway.

We experience our biology, and this informs who we are, it is part of what creates gender. The differences between men and women aren’t completely contstructed, they’re a result of men being men and women being women–the archetypes come from somewhere; they aren’t completely manufactured.

And that’s why I said a transsexual will never really become the gender that person desires.

I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to say that, for reasons unknown, some men begin to think of themselves as more effeminate than other men, and identify with women more. Packs of boys tend to isolate boys that exhibit feminine characteristics, and I think this tends to enhance them in many cases. Because they don’t feel like boys, they start to make a reasonable assumption that they must be more like girls, and begin to sort of subconsciously cultivate an ‘inner feminine.’ I think a lot of homosexual men experience this on some level–becoming more effeminate because of a real or perceived separation from other men. It seems more likely to me that somewhere along the way a transsexual male began to think of himself as more female than male. This is where the psychology of transsexualism comes into play–because it is accepted by many people and celebrated by the GLBT community, the idea takes hold that this person must be a transsexual and there are a lot of other people who feel that way and some sort of ‘natural mistake’ can be altered. I do think the GLBT community encourages transsexualism, or tries to. I also think it would probably be healthier for these people to accept that they are men who may simply have more feminine characteristics than most men. But since they can never really become women, I don’t really know if encouraging transsexualism is the smartest idea.

Coming to terms with the cards you were dealt seems healthier to me, in the gender department, than trying to become another person entirely and be accepted by other people as that new person. It can be done, I think, but it would take one Hell of a constitution and I don’t think most people–no matter what their sexuality–are up to that task.

What I have issues with is the psychology, which is based on a faulty assumption–that gender is purely a construct, and has nothing to do with sex.
This simply isn’t true.

I’m actually reading a book on this at the moment that is fascinating. Even when boys were, due to botched circumcisions, sexually re-assigned at birth and dosed with hormones, despite heavy female socialization, they still grew up to be girls who thought they were boys, and behaved as boys. It’s not just hormones and sex organs–it’s also the brain itself. Men are wired differently than women. Hormones and surgery don’t change that rewiring. Obviously I also take issue with the idea that homosexual men have brains that are wired like girls’ brains (which is one of the assumptions some of the ‘born that way’ research seems to be based on). My real-world observance of homosexual men doesn’t jive with that. Homosexual men still, for the most part, think like men. They just, sometimes, act like women. My hunch, and it’s just a hunch, is that transsexual men are also, for the most part, still wired to think like men. I think people need to figure this out before they go around advising people that they were ‘born the wrong way.’

You can't call native people who are "two spirited" trans-sexual or trans gendered or consider them to be trans-sexual or transgendered either since they're two spirited, not transgendered or trans sexual which are both modern westernized terms from the 20th century.

 

[Underdog]

In the '80's I worked in Chicago, and a SunTimes advice columnist got a letter something like this. Man had a partner, partner wanted him to become a woman, so he went ahead with it, had the surgery and became a transsexual. ( He didn't have a problem with it, felt he was a woman all along). Then the partner decided that he didn't love him anymore and wanted to date men again. The writer was asking the advice columnist what to do next.

That was a little messed up IMHO.

Overall, I think it's weird to pass yourself off as something you're not, but if a person really believes they are of the opposite sex, what can you say ?

I also don't understand a feminine partner in a gay relationship, or a butch partner in a lesbian relationship. It seems the other partner should just marry a woman in the gay relationship, and a man in the lesbian relationship. What's the point...

 

[lapafrax]

what are your thoughts as gay men about transgendered people?
Ever have sex with one? Would you date/have a relationship with someone trans or have sex with them?

do you think that they're mentally ill? I don't mean this as a flame but I've met lots of gay men who think this.

I've fucked one up the arse before and got a blowjob from another, but that's it. I'm eagerly awaiting the day when a male to female trans fucks me in the ass, but I don't know where to hook up with them.

And yes I would date one. As for mental illness, well gender dysphoria is listed in the DSM, so I suppose technically it is a mental illness. It's not as if they can help it though, since feeling you're the wrong sex isn't really a choice.

 

[lapafrax]

(BTW is transvestism part of transgender?).

No, because transvestites don't think they have the mind of one gender and the body of another. Most transvestites do it for sexual kicks.

Did you mean female to male?

no, male to female. i find chicks with dicks sexy!

 

[Jeimuzu]

I'm shocked when it comes up - it's not a typical thing to hear about. However, I support anyone's decision to go through the process, because I think if they're friends, I'd rather they be happy in who they are. If it takes an operation/body change to make that happen, I'll support them all the way.

(For the record, a good friend of mine is planning to have the op, she wants to be a he)

Never had sex with one. I'm not sure I would, but then again that's more because I'm not a very sexual person. At all. I certainly would date one, so long as they were to allow my little slips - aka occasionally referring to he as a she, because I'm still not used to it, etc.

They're not mentally ill at all. They dislike who they are, and the limitations of their gender, nothing more.

 

[ladygrey]

I must say:

It sounds like several people are talking on this thread without having any fucking idea about what the goddess only knows they are talking about.

Do any of you have a Ph.D in Mental Health? Are you trained in interpretating psyhcoloical studies? Do you have training with the DSVM?

I'm going to blanket assume that for a majority of posters here, you have to answer no to those questions.

So then, please keep your pesudo anaysis to yourself. And XleatherX, your view of gender sounds remarkablely limited and rather (dare I say) prejuiced. How about you keept it to yourself and allow others like myself to have whatever idenity we want? Hmm?

If I want to (for eternity) have my dick cut off, then I will. Damn you for telling me what I can and cannot do with my body. Frankly, you have no idea how I feel, so why bother making assumptions? Don't we all have the right to define ourselves?

And finally, get over it. Just stuff it. Transpeople live with enough hate/discrimination, we don't need to rejected from the GLBT community as well.

I mean, we might as well just stone everyone we don't understand or like, eh?

 

[lapafrax]

If I want to (for eternity) have my dick cut off, then I will

why? chicks with dicks rock!

 

[ladygrey]

^^

Yah, that's nice. Encourage a highly sexualized image of transsexual people. Cause that's all we are society, remember. Either a dick or a hole.

*shakes head*

 

[lapafrax]

So simply saying that m to f's can be sexy is demeaning all transexuals? How exactly?

One could find a group sexually attractive without considering them sex objects. If a gay man likes twinks/younger men, does this mean all younger gay men are being sexualized? Or is it a mere subjective preference?

 

[Hard Luck]

And I dont' recall anyone saying people don't have the right to be whatever gender they want .... but I did read, and let me just say it as coming from me ... they don't necessarily have that ability.


A man may feel he's a cow, and have udders installed, but he can't be a cow no matter what.


Sorry to offend ... and each person can travel whatever path they want ... but no amount of hormones or surgery or psychology is going to make a biological man into a woman, or vice-versa. And men who think they are women have really zero idea what it is to be a women .... because they are not women. Sorry.

If someone wants to travel the path of becoming the opposite gender ... all well and good. The path may be fine, but the destination is unattainable. Whatever ... life's more a journey anyway.



My apologies for being insulting. It's just that I'd like to be a Viking God, but my DNA had other ideas ... and I'm as powerless as the next man to really change that.

 

[luminum]

Gender is different than sex. The experience of one general gender isn't defined by one's sex. So to say that men who feel like women have no idea what it's like to be a woman is pretty unsubstantiated. What does it mean to 'feel like a woman'?

 

[Hard Luck]

Dunno, ask a woman.


By your logic, which I certainly can ascribe to, what difference does it make? No one necessarily feels like a "man" or a "woman," but merely as themselves. So when someone feels they are not their biological gender ... they are, imo, deluding themselves. They feel as themselves, and they are the gender they are. Ipso facto, they already are the correct gender.

It is a feat of imagination and thought when someone feels they are a different gender than their biological reality. There is simply no such thing. We are all individuals. But we cannot ever know what it feels like to be someone else. And we cannot ever know what it feels like to be a different gender. If we cannot know that, it's not possible to determine that we are the "wrong" gender ... or the "wrong" person. We can imagine it, we can think it ... but it cannot be determined.


I may feel I am Napoleon Bonaparte ... but since I only have what I imagine are the feelings of being Napoleon, I cannot possibly really know that I am Napoleon and not myself.



But fine, I'm short enough to be him. I'll wear the funny hat and tuck my hand inside my coat. And I will tell myself I am Napoleon.

Yet I will still be me.

 

[XLeatherX]

I think it's unrealistic to believe that gender is entirely a subjective expression, and that it's not genetic at all.

Sometimes I get annoyed at how inclusive the GLBTQXYZ community is to the point where it's absurd.

I've heard people say if you're not attracted to black men how you're racist or how if you wouldn't have sex with a poz person how it's discrimination which both of these are silly viewpoints.

I think there's a misunderstanding about what we all have in common. Not ALL GLBT people are against heterosexuals or want to be part of an effort to force everyone into a coalition against the hetero majority.

Although I think it's worth asking whether the intention really is biased or bigoted
I don't think that trans people should be included since they deal with sex/gender changes and the majority of everyone else who is GLB doesn't.

Trans people get mad when they can't change their name/gender on their legal birth cirtificate before the surgery, which is silly since it doesn't really change you into the opposite gender, and there should be some default way of doing it since it's a birth certificate and it's a legal document issued by the government. I think they should perhaps let them change it if they have a sex change operation; but has it say trans-whatever gender they want to be if they change it.

MTF trans people argue that they're the opposite gender inside but still they're born one gender so how would they instinctively know exactly what it's like to be the other gender? A man or a person in a man's body doesn't intinctively know what it's like to have a vagina, menstrate, have a child/be pregnant, or be female inside a female body. Same goes for an FTM who is trying to be a man.

 

[luminum]

Those are all valid points if we assume that gender is subjective.

Sex is not subjective, though. Gender is, and it's all about how someone identifies themselves psychologically and emotionally. And sometimes, that emotional difference aligns with that person's perception of their own sex. It's an attempt to align gender and sex in harmony.

But I don't think they're deluding themselves, because I see a change in their physical makeup to be equivalent to how I dress to reflect myself and my identity. I will never wear a golf button down with a popped collar because it doesn't reflect the kind of person I am or how I view myself.

Just the same, an mtf trans person will never wear a men's suit because it doesn't reflect how they view themselves. And if a mtf decides to have an operation to change their outward physical sexual appearance to reflect how they view themselves, it is understandable to me and not delusional.

They identify as feminine, and though that term may be nebulous to others, it holds meaning to them and to others and I have no problem associating them with the term they ascribe to themselves.

If a mtf trans person ever tried to argue with me that they are genetically female, then I would tell them that they weren't. But after an operation and mentally, if they told me they were outwardly physically female and mentally female, then I have no problem agreeing with them and accepting it.

Life's too short to cut people down about technicalities and whatever labels they want to better identify themselves is no skin off of my nose. I welcome it and embrace it.