Trump to Rescind Protection for Trans Students

[rareboy]

Well let's see what the Supreme Court does with Gavin Grimm's case on March 28th.

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/gavin-grimm-supreme-court-case-interview

 

[Benvolio]

You just have not thought this through. In #28 I asked what the rule should be. If you say transexuals can use the bathroom of their identity rather than their anatomy, does that not mean that any man, dressed as a man, has the right to use and hang out in the women's locker room, shower, bathroom--if he claims to be trans? At the present time, if a man enters a woman's room, she will protest, be on the alert and leave if she is uncomfortable. But if men have the legal right to use it, how can she protest?
Your mental image is that he/she will wear a dress, so is that your rule--that trans women wearing dresses may use the women's room, but not otherwise? Even so, some rapists may choose to wear the dress since it gives them the right to get near the women.

Or will you limit it to certified trans people? Who will check the IDs?
Again, you simply ignore and brush away the concerns of the 499 women to 1 trans and focus ONLY on the concerns and wishes of the 1 transexual.

 

[Benvolio]

So by the same token you could use the argument that back in the day allowing African Americans to use White facilities made them superior to the White people when it reality like in the case of trans people this allowed them equal rights. You do not have a right to deny someone else equal rights and again there has not been one case of a trans person abusing a bio female in the bathroom and you also ignore that if you do this. Then ciswomen will have to share the same bathrooms as transmen who look indistinguishable from men. Which again you ignore.

So would you also say that White people who wanted segregated facilities were violated by non Whites being able to use their facilities. Again transwomen are not men and if you force people to use the bathroom of the gender they are born in then you will have transmen using the same bathroom as girls. So tell me who would girls rather have in the bathroom with them Blaire White or Buck Angel?



Again your rule does not solve the problem it makes it worse. A transwoman is not a man and has the right to use the female restroom. Now if you force people into the bathroom of their biological gender. You will have men like this using the female restroom just because he has a vagina. Now tell me how many women would like to see him in their bathroom?
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=buck+angel&FORM=HDRSC2
Vs. this girl.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=blaire+White&go=Search&qs=bs&form=


Actually 12 or 13 is a good age to transition given that they can avoid puberty and this pass more plus trans kids have been driven to suicide for forcing them to be the gender they don't identify in. Now tell me how many teen girls would like for a teen Buck Angel to use the bathroom with them vs a teen Blaire White. Again the majority has no right to vote away the rights of the minority.

Yours is the logical fallacy of "begging the question", i.e., you assume the very question being debated. You assume that a anatomical man is a woman if he feels like a woman. That is a definitional question which can be seen either way. Most people would us the word man or woman as dictated by the anatomy, notwithstanding his/her feelings. Words mean what most people intend them to mean, and your wish for a different meaning is not binding on everyone.
Second, you "beg the question" by assuming what we are debating. You assume that anatomical men have a right to use the women's room of they are transgender. There has never been such a right and your saying you have a right does not make it so. Your imaginary right is contrary to the wishes and "right" of privacy of all those women who are uncomfortable or fearful of sharing with men, dresses or no.
Finally, let me ask. Does your "right" to use the women's room extend to showers and locker rooms?

 

[rareboy]

You just have not thought this through. In #28 I asked what the rule should be. If you say transexuals can use the bathroom of their identity rather than their anatomy, does that not mean that any man, dressed as a man, has the right to use and hang out in the women's locker room, shower, bathroom--if he claims to be trans? At the present time, if a man enters a woman's room, she will protest, be on the alert and leave if she is uncomfortable. But if men have the legal right to use it, how can she protest?
Your mental image is that he/she will wear a dress, so is that your rule--that trans women wearing dresses may use the women's room, but not otherwise? Even so, some rapists may choose to wear the dress since it gives them the right to get near the women.

Or will you limit it to certified trans people? Who will check the IDs?
Again, you simply ignore and brush away the concerns of the 499 women to 1 trans and focus ONLY on the concerns and wishes of the 1 transexual.

Wow.

No you are the one who hasn't thought it through.

And again, you betray a staggering, arrogant ignorance about transexual identity.

You've just made my point for me.

A transexual female to male may have all the characteristics of a man...except perhaps still having a vagina.

Making him use the women's washroom because he may not have a penis opens up the possibility of any man using the female washroom.

Likewise, a transexual male to female may have all the secondary sexual characteristics of a fenale....but may still have a penis. Making her use the men's room exposes her to a higher degree of potential harm.

I said you were incapable of comprehending the point.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[rareboy]

By the way.

This thread was about the removal of protection for students.

 

[Benvolio]

Wow.

No you are the one who hasn't thought it through.

And again, you betray a staggering, arrogant ignorance about transexual identity.

You've just made my point for me.

A transexual female to male may have all the characteristics of a man...except perhaps still having a vagina.

Making him use the women's washroom because he may not have a penis opens up the possibility of any man using the female washroom.

Likewise, a transexual male to female may have all the secondary sexual characteristics of a fenale....but may still have a penis. Making her use the men's room exposes her to a higher degree of potential harm.

I said you were incapable of comprehending the point.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

No, i asked the question, what do you claim the rule should be?

 

[Benvolio]

Wow.

No you are the one who hasn't thought it through.

And again, you betray a staggering, arrogant ignorance about transexual identity.

You've just made my point for me.

A transexual female to male may have all the characteristics of a man...except perhaps still having a vagina.

Making him use the women's washroom because he may not have a penis opens up the possibility of any man using the female washroom.

Likewise, a transexual male to female may have all the secondary sexual characteristics of a fenale....but may still have a penis. Making her use the men's room exposes her to a higher degree of potential harm.

I said you were incapable of comprehending the point.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Your incomprehension arises from your belief that all transexuals dress by their identity all the time, whereas, in fact many dress one way for works and another for liesure. Students do not necessarily dress as transexuals all the time, and are still learning and experimenting. With that understanding you will perhaps see the significance of my question at #28, what should the rule be?

 

[CoolBlue71]

Solidarity. At another discussion site, which I will not name specifically, but which also draws the interest of people who are among the LGBT, here are screenshots of some of their revealing comments. (I blacked out text which identifies that site and anyone in particular cited.)

​

 

[mikey3000]

For once, I disagree with Benovolio.

I think this is a federal issue. This falls under the "right-to-privacy" part of the Constitution. People have a right to take a leak without the opposite sex being in the room, and thank you President Trump for giving Americans that right that back. I for one cannot start peeing if there is a girl in the room. I don't care what she thinks about herself. This is about me and my rights.

But what does that even mean now a days, "the opposite sex?" To me, 'trans' means to move from one to the other, from male to female or vice versa. Is someone who never even considers to have gender reassignment surgery (because most don't) really trans gender? How about those who slap on a wig and a dress one day because that day they feel like a woman? Are they trans? Are we supposed to accommodate how ever they are feeling that particular day? What if one day they feel like a cat, are we obliged to provide them with a litter box?

 

[mikey3000]

By the way.

This thread was about the removal of protection for students.

A trans student can be 7 years old or 87 years old. Duh!

 

[Benvolio]

Neither am I, but lots are, and that's why all the hoopla right now with trans bathrooms. I think they should have all single, gender neutral bathrooms. Problem solved,

Don't they also want to shower and have locker rooms open for transgender? Should taxpayer be obligated to pay for rebuilding all this stuff to accomodate the tiny minority? Who has the right to decide? Certainly not the president.

 

[frankfrank]

For once, I disagree with Benovolio.

I for one cannot start peeing if there is a girl in the room. This is about me and my rights.

How can you say that, and DISAGREE with Benvolio?

In Benvolioworld,. you will start occasionally seeing "women" in the Men's Room...in the form of transgendered-to-women DUDES who may still have penises. You won't be able to tell by looking at them, either - they will look like women. They would be required to go to the men's room, under these new laws (which didn't exist before, and without there ever having been any problems in the known history of the world).

Isn't it interesting that they want these new laws, which will BREED new problems (in the form of "freaks," as they are perceived, getting beaten up in men's rooms), when no problems have ever existed in the past, as well as adding a new bureaucracy of Genital Police?

 

[mikey3000]

Don't they also want to shower and have locker rooms open for transgender? Should taxpayer be obligated to pay for rebuilding all this stuff to accomodate the tiny minority? Who has the right to decide? Certainly not the president.

Then does the state? I think not. If you are a man, either biologically of through gender reassignment surgery, then you use the men's room, and vice versa. If you feel you're somewhere in between some days, then you use which ever you feel is right for you. BUT! If you're pretending, and you go in there to molest, then get ready to take your lumps.

 

[luckynumbah7]

I want to know how sexual assault is probable when a penis enters the women's room under clothing and behind a stall door but is suddenly impossible when a vagina enters the men's washroom and is surrounded by a bunch of dicks out and about, in plain view. Either put up the reasoning, Ben, Kev, ect. or fuck off with the faux concern about people with cunts being in a 'higher danger' when a penis is close by. As it happens that danger is raised when someone guesses/knows you're trans.

And Kev, if you were talking about trans women being the girls in question then what you actually seem to dislike isn't genitalia, it's femininity. In which case, too fucking bad; feminine people also need to piss and your comfort doesn't outweigh that.

Gee, you'd almost think the genitalia isn't the issue but that the cultural expectations of sexual availability is (but only for the 'right kinds' of men, a skirt with a penis who enters the women's room need not apply cuz ppl don't think you should be breeding and mandatory sterilization, don'tcha know). Cis people rarely complain about trans guys entering the men's room, just trans people using the men's room when they can be visibly spotted as trans. Kev, for instance, complained about girls, which is kinda funny cuz 'girl' isn't the first thing that pops into their head when someone that's been clocked enters a restroom. The first, last and only question that rears is 'what are they', not generally "There's a woman in the stall!"

One of those availability assumptions is that 'ugly' (i.e., masculine) women (whether they identify as women or not) can't be assaulted because they said 'yes' by existing in a particular place and time. I also know damn well that the lot of you have heard jokes and defenses of that kind've sexual assault before, the behavior doesn't disappear in the men's room just because some people wanna pretend a penis attached to a woman is the 'true threat' for removing some other woman's purity. It reminds me of the straight/bi guy thing when men want to know how many - other- men you've had sex with and that they're just looking for a really low number to validate that whole Madonna/whore compilex that's going on. Can't have the Wrong Sort fucking the same woman you might possibly want to get with at a later date, after all, and y'dont want said vagina to be fucking too many people, it would 'spoil' it.

People seem to forget is that you often can't tell who is trans, and of the people who do pick up on it, they can't tell what you started out as. It's always 'Yes, but what were you born as?!", as if that were actually an indication of what's in the trousers. Since you can't reliably tell (and you can't, the belief that you're actually good at it is both incredibly funny and incredibly disgusting, along with incredibly exhausting) it's basically a call to not let us use any public restrooms, which is clearly unfair.

If men dealt with their own misogyny they wouldn't be fearing random penises possibly interacting with people they consider under their sexual jurisdiction.

 

[luckynumbah7]

-To be fair, I find it perplexing when sexual assault is mentioned that there's generally a great rush of several "Not all men!" when statistics are brought about but then the tune changes for "Yes, of course all these 'men', be frightened, dammit!" when a trans woman enters the picture with a relative lack of sexual assault. Hypocrisy much.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Your incomprehension arises from your belief that all transexuals dress by their identity all the time, whereas, in fact many dress one way for works and another for liesure. Students do not necessarily dress as transexuals all the time, and are still learning and experimenting. With that understanding you will perhaps see the significance of my question at #28, what should the rule be?

There's no such thing as 'dressing as a transsexual'. This would be the time, if you have any capability of logical reasoning whatsoever, to just say that you have no idea who is transsexual or what direction they're going in just by looking at them. It's just clothing and your own interpretation of what's a feminine or masculine 'cue'.

The 'rule' is keep your genitals to yourself, go about your business and leave the restroom. It's not that difficult for anyone else, it shouldn't be this difficult for you.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Yours is the logical fallacy of "begging the question", i.e., you assume the very question being debated. You assume that a anatomical man is a woman if he feels like a woman. That is a definitional question which can be seen either way. Most people would us the word man or woman as dictated by the anatomy, notwithstanding his/her feelings. Words mean what most people intend them to mean, and your wish for a different meaning is not binding on everyone.
Second, you "beg the question" by assuming what we are debating. You assume that anatomical men have a right to use the women's room of they are transgender. There has never been such a right and your saying you have a right does not make it so. Your imaginary right is contrary to the wishes and "right" of privacy of all those women who are uncomfortable or fearful of sharing with men, dresses or no.
Finally, let me ask. Does your "right" to use the women's room extend to showers and locker rooms?

Actually a transwoman is a woman because again science and psychology affirm that transsexuality is a diagnosed condition that is inborn and again gender is determined by gender identity not anatomy. You also ignore the question I asked. If you force teenage transgirls who look pretty much indistinguishable from a girl if they are on hormones into the men's room then you will also force transboys who are basically men except that they have pussies into the girl's room. So girls will be using the bathroom with men transmen. So tell me which would a girl rather see in the bathroom. A teenage Blaire White or Laverne Cox or a teen Buck Angel.

Again transsexuality is a diagnosed condition and mainstream psychology sees the gender of transsexuals the same as their gender identity. Under your ideas though transmen like Buck Angel who look indistinguishable from men except with a pussy will be using the bathrooms with women. So how many women would be fine with seeing a man like Buck Angel coming in the girls room vs a girl like Blaire White. Again you like all Conservatives fail on this issue and logic is not on your side.

 

[Kabluey]

Don't they also want to shower and have locker rooms open for transgender? Should taxpayer be obligated to pay for rebuilding all this stuff to accomodate the tiny minority? Who has the right to decide? Certainly not the president.

Women share changing rooms with people of the same gender who are lesbian, intellectually disabled, have physical deformities, are old, are young, have medical conditions like prolapses and surgery scars.

I'm starting to wonder whether as many people care about the thought of naked bodies as you?

Plenty of people are already modest, not standing naked in these public facilities already.

You have an unhealthy obsession with showers.

 

[TX-Beau]

Women share changing rooms with people of the same gender who are lesbian, intellectually disabled, have physical deformities, are old, are young, have medical conditions like prolapses and surgery scars.

I'm starting to wonder whether as many people care about the thought of naked bodies as you?

Plenty of people are already modest, not standing naked in these public facilities already.

You have an unhealthy obsession with showers.

At my gym the beauties wander the locker room butt ass naked, swinging in the wind - God Bless them...

 

[Stardreamer]

Moved over from another thread, this one is more appropriate:

You know before the whole TG bathroom became a craze on the Right, I don't think it was even illegal in most jurisdictions for someone to use an opposite gender toilet as long as they didn't cause a disturbance.

I love how Benvolio ignores that by forcing transwomen into the men's bathroom that he will also force transmen into the female bathroom. How many ciswomen would be fine with sharing a bathroom with Buck Angel who looks indistinguishable from a men accept that he has a pussy vs someone like Blaire White who looks indistinguishable from a woman except for the fact that she has a penis. Once again Benvolio scurries away like a shy fish.

You are right; through most of our history men used the mens room and women theirs and no one needed a law much less a dictatorial decree to tell them what bathroom to use. O Tempera, O Mores!

Yet transmen and transwomen were using the bathroom they identified with in all that time and it was never enough of a problem to need a law. The same for the hordes of rapists and perverts wanting to assault women in bathrooms, you really can't think the only thing holding them back was the lack of a transgender bathroom bill. So essentially, it is not a significant issue until the Right wanted to use it as a means to fight against LGBT equality laws.

We can continue this here.