Trump's Wall and the Rio Grande

[Kulindahr]

China's Great Wall was never breached but a general opened a gate and let the Mongol army through. So, a wall is only as good as those given the task of protecting it.

It failed to protect reigning dynasties from usurpers, though; e.g. the Manchu were north of the Wall, and they successfully conquered despite it. I can't find if there was treachery involved in those instances as with the successful Mongol invasion.

The Manchu were north of the Wall, and they successfully conquered despite it.

 

[KaraBulut]

Actually the Great Wall is a good example when its actual purpose is considered: it wasn't expected to stop intruders; there weren't enough soldiers for it to accomplish that. What it was meant to do, and did mostly fairly well, was slow them down, make it possible to know where they'd come from, and mobilize an interception force to catch them before they got away. Except for some actual invasions, the Wall was effective, especially as a border control so taxes could be levied on trade and as a transportation route for border forces. For its purposes, it was a high-tech solution for its time.

Lest we forget:

All of this was achieved at great economic and human costs. The emperor thought the wall would bring peace to the nation but the nation was weakened by the heavy cost of the construction. Ditches along the wall were filled with the corpses of workers who died building the wall. Deaths of wall workers are estimated to exceed one million. Some have claimed that the dead workers were entombed in the wall itself. Later investigations proved this untrue. Also decaying bodies would have weakened the structure and would not have been allowed.

No society could sustain such a terrible burden. Taxation became heavier and heavier. Some 3,500,000 people were involved in the building of the Great Wall. That was 70% of the total population of China at that time. For each worker working on the wall, six were required to feed and support them. Construction of the Qin wall became the most hated imperial project in Chinese history.

In 209 BC, only a year after the death of the Qin Emperor, millions of peasants rose up and ended the tyranny and bloodshed of wall building. The Qin Dynasty had fallen, brought down by the building of the great wall. Within ten years much of the wall was a neglected ruin. Once again the northern border was at the mercy of the northern invaders.

Source

 

[Kulindahr]

Lest we forget:
Source

The crazy thing about that is he had several existing walls to work with and connected them -- you'd think that would have made things easier.

 

[Stardreamer]

From the history I read China's Great Wall did nothing to stop illegal immigrants from crossing, there are plenty of ways for individuals and small groups to get around and through it. What it did do was slow armed raiding parties and small military forces enough that the annual raiding of the farms and villages in the region were no longer practical. Thus it provided stability to the region behind the wall.

 

[TX-Beau]

Does anyone really believe there is ever going to be a wall?

 

[KaraBulut]

From the history I read China's Great Wall did nothing to stop illegal immigrants from crossing, there are plenty of ways for individuals and small groups to get around and through it. What it did do was slow armed raiding parties and small military forces enough that the annual raiding of the farms and villages in the region were no longer practical. Thus it provided stability to the region behind the wall.

Circling back to the original topic: Remind me exactly what armed raiding parties and small military forces are coming from Mexico that require a 2,000 mile border wall costing $25 billion?

 

[kallipolis]

^ I heard over the grape vine that Trump viewed The Alamo several times in the run up to the election, leading me to understand that he fears the resurrection of General Santa Anna, and a re-run....without John Wayne to hold the fort.

 

[Benvolio]

Circling back to the original topic: Remind me exactly what armed raiding parties and small military forces are coming from Mexico that require a 2,000 mile border wall costing $25 billion?

Far worse, they are coming in an endless stream of millions.

 

[KaraBulut]

Far worse, they are coming in an endless stream of millions.

No, they're going by the hundreds of thousands. The mass-immigration from Mexico ended in 2007 when construction jobs dried up.

More jobs and free healthcare in Mexico.

 

[Benvolio]

No, they're going by the hundreds of thousands. The mass-immigration from Mexico ended in 2007 when construction jobs dried up.

More jobs and free healthcare in Mexico.

You are talking about Mexicans but lots of the people coming through Mexico are not Mexicans. You also need to be sceptical of such liberal figures. Who counts them. Remember that the border agents labor union supported Trump because they hated Omama's policies allowing illegals.

 

[Benvolio]

Here is a cite to the border agents endorsement of Trump. http://www.bpunion.org/newsroom/pre...l-council-endorses-donald-trump-for-president

 

[gsdx]

Does anyone really believe there is ever going to be a wall?

I don't, but the big question is whether Trump did/does believe it or did he just use it as a ploy like any run-of-the-mill snake-oil salesman to brainwash his minions into believing the danger from the south of which he has no proof? We already know how he feels about Mexicans. The only thing they're good for is cleaning his toilets and washing his sheets at Mar-a-Lago for which he pays shit wages.

My money's on the 'brainwashing' thing.

 

[KaraBulut]

... sceptical of such liberal figures...

Facts aren't liberal or conservative. They're just facts.

And it's "skeptical".

 

[Kulindahr]

^ I heard over the grape vine that Trump viewed The Alamo several times in the run up to the election, leading me to understand that he fears the resurrection of General Santa Anna, and a re-run....without John Wayne to hold the fort.

LOL

That probably gives a realistic picture of how connected Trump is to reality.

 

[Stardreamer]

Circling back to the original topic: Remind me exactly what armed raiding parties and small military forces are coming from Mexico that require a 2,000 mile border wall costing $25 billion?

Precisely, the idea that a 'Great Wall' on the southern border would accomplish anything other than being a money pit is laughable.

 

[Kulindahr]

Circling back to the original topic: Remind me exactly what armed raiding parties and small military forces are coming from Mexico that require a 2,000 mile border wall costing $25 billion?

Precisely, the idea that a 'Great Wall' on the southern border would accomplish anything other than being a money pit is laughable.

Well, there are armed drug cartel members crossing back and forth; more than one American has been murdered by some (using guns they got thanks to Obama's 'Fast and Furious' ATF program, too). But secure response outposts with drones would be more effective for them, too -- indeed Trump could take a page from Teddy Roosevelt and insist that when armed drug cartel people cross into the U..S., border patrol drones should be allowed to pursue and eliminate; that would make far more sense than any wall.

 

[Benvolio]

Facts aren't liberal or conservative. They're just facts.

And it's "skeptical".

[Text: Removed] The chart is intended to mislead by limiting it to Mexicans which are only a portion of the invaders. More importantly it is a long border, much of it unguarded. Who is counting theses people coming and going? Or are they trusting the immigration department to estimate the number of their failures?

 

[gsdx]

The chart is intended to mislead by limiting it to Mexicans which are only a portion of the invaders.

Who are these 'others' you're talking about? You've mentioned them before.

As for the wall, there are natural geographic barriers which are more suitable obstacles than a wall. And, as has been mentioned before, walls don't keep people out if they want to get in or keep them in when they want to get out. History has proved that many, many times.

 

[Kulindahr]

[Text: Removed] The chart is intended to mislead by limiting it to Mexicans which are only a portion of the invaders. More importantly it is a long border, much of it unguarded. Who is counting theses people coming and going? Or are they trusting the immigration department to estimate the number of their failures?

More likely, the researchers were lazy and counted everyone crossing in from Mexico as Mexicans.

 

[KaraBulut]

More likely, the researchers were lazy and counted everyone crossing in from Mexico as Mexicans.

No, the reporting is separated by country of origin. In border lingo, they refer to them as Mexicans and OTMs- "other than Mexicans".

Based upon apprehensions, neither category qualifies as "millions".

Since 2007, over 1 million Mexicans have emigrated from the US to Mexico. The majority of undocumented Mexican immigrants (estimated to be about 5 million) living in the US have been here more than 10 years.

There's a significant number of Asian immigrants living in the US that no one really discusses- it's estimated that there are about 1 million illegal immigrants from Asia in the US. Asian immigrants account for the largest number of legal immigrants too.