Trust issues

[hanshansen]

I just watched two episodes of Dexter on my laptop and just totally lost it. Without warning. Bawled my eyes out.

I've written elsewhere about the affinity I feel with the Dexter character. I find it so hard to get close to people. With some exceptions (see below) I push people away when it comes to sexual issues. I guess I feel I have this incredibly shameful baggage (arrested development, sexual confusion, sexual inexperience, whatever) which will result in benevolent bemusement at best or alienation and awkwardness and humiliation at worst.

For years I basically lived under a rock, trying to avoid any situation where this stuff might come out. Since then I've become more adept at hiding it and, to a very limited extent, have found people who I have been able to give glimpses of it. I've built up a very active social life and made some good friends.

Some of them are just tactful people who would never pry and never ask me about that stuff. My parents are like that, as well. I don't talk to them about really personal issues but bond with them in other ways.

Some are people who are just emotionally generous and extroverted, they gave of themselves and pushed at the barriers and I just couldn't in good conscience shut them out. These are people I can talk to about personal/relationship stuff. I don't think they really get the baggage and the trust issues, but they like me enough to make an effort. All but one of them are gay and/or bi.

One is a gay guy who I suspect is very similar to me in many ways. Friendly, outgoing, resourceful, all the good things, but I suspect he has massive fears hiding under the surface. We just clicked and I trusted him absolutely. Unfortunately I ended up developing very strong feelings for him - serious enough that I totally saw a relationship with him as desirable and to be worked towards - which he couldn't reciprocate. I suspect that he is a soul mate in important ways and I really want to continue working on that friendship.

So these are great people to know, but none of them are people who I could be in a relationship with or who I have really integrated into the general fabric of my life (although I've gone as far as to invite them to big parties). I try to catch up with them individually in a serious way every couple of weeks over dinner or drinks.

Couple of other random observations/thoughts:

I tried coming out to a couple of people, including my parents. Maybe it was how I did it, but it was like this window opened and closed again. We have never talked about it since and I suspect they are either in denial or think that I am and therefore pretend to be. Since they're in the tactful/non-prying class it hasn't affected our relations.

Truth be told, I am still very scared of coming out to people. The reason (I live in a very metro/gay-friendly environment) is that I'm scared people will expect things to be simple and clear-cut when, to me, it's anything but and involves very vulnerable parts of me. And as I said, I don't feel comfortable talking to most people about that stuff.

There's a guy who somehow got me to just trust him enough to go to bed with him (alcohol also helped). It wasn't a good experience (first time, my trust didn't go far enough to make it enjoyable), we cooled things off, have seen each other socially but never talked about personal stuff since. Crazily enough he invited me on an island marathon/vacation at the end of September, I accepted, we're sharing a twin room. Have no idea what his agenda is or whether he has an agenda. Maybe one of us will open up again. The fact is, my attraction to him may be luke-warm and for various reasons I can't picture myself in a proper relationship with him (maybe that would change if I got to know him better). But we have seen each other naked and he knows my baggage, so that's something.

I know this is all random and disorganised. I'm trying to understand why I burst into tears an hour ago. A guess at some level I still feel very, very alone and blocked up. I would love to be able to totally let go emotionally with someone and let them into my life and to have them want and be able to do the same with me, but it just seems so hard.

I can't go through the normal channels of hook-ups and dating. No-strings-attached sex would interest me about as much as making love to an inflatable doll. With people I meet at parties (girls and most gay guys) it never goes beyond mild flirting because I'm afraid of them discovering my vulnerable spots. If I have the slightest inkling that someone is only interested in getting to know me because they want sex or because they see me as an object of curiosity the trust goes and I shut them out.

I guess what I want to know is: IS THIS OK? Is it OK for me to keep building on what I've already got, will things work out given time? Or have I put up obstacles which are so deep that it'll be really hard to get where I want to go? And if so, how do I remove the obstacles, which I know are in my own head? I spoke to a therapist and he convinced me that my baggage wasn't my fault, it was because of circumstance. But I guess I need to be convinced that others will see it that way too, and will care enough to work through it with me.

 

[hanshansen]

Thanks a lot for that, Noel.

I've given this a little thought and, thank God, I think I can say confidently, the house that is my life is not built on sand. All the really important people in my life (and that includes people like my parents) genuinely respect me and care about me (though of course in different ways) and would make the effort to adjust to anything they found out about me and deal with it in good faith. If someone gave that house a good kick it wouldn't fall. However, it would shake and some decorations might fall off and cause some injuries.

I don't believe I suffer from depression but I have been trying to manage low-level stress pretty much constantly for as long as I can remember.

These crying fits are a very recent thing. They must be a sign that I'm reaching some kind of a crisis point. I think they are also a reflection of the fact that I have been taking the realisation that my friend will never be more than a friend much harder than I would like to admit.

The fact is, I suspect my house needs a good kick for things to get easier ... my friend is the first person I really felt somehow totally myself with and could picture fitting into my life ... when I had hopes for something with my friend, the motivation was there to make those big moves, I felt I was up to it ... now I'm more conscious than ever that I haven't gone far enough outside my comfort zone, but I no longer have the desire to subject myself to that kind of stress, given all the other demands on my life.

There are so many good things in my life, on good days I am very thankful for everything that I have. There's just two big absences.The first is that I'm totally starved for physical affection. I don't mean sex, I mean things like hugs and other affectionate contact ... I don't know how to give or receive physical affection. I'm even at a loss with dogs or other pets. I can give verbal support and say sincere things, I can smile, I can make eye contact. But there are times when that is just not enough ... I mean what would I do if someone I cared about suffered a major bereavement? What if I was the person suffering that bereavement?

The second is some kind of lack of wholeness ... as you say, I'm having to sup from so many wells ... I get domestic companionship from my housemates, I get a certain kind of emotional support from my parents, I get another kind from the friends I can talk about relationship issues with, etc. And often I have to wait for weeks to get a drink from one of these wells and sometimes even then I don't get very much.

I would love it if those things could change, I know the onus is on me to make that happen, it just seems very difficult and stressful and slow and unclear.

As for the vacation ... yes, I thought it might do me some good too, that's why I agreed to it. If things come up, I'll do my best to be up front and honest about where I stand and not take the easy way out. I was able to do that with the friend I developed feelings for.

 

[Lube]

It doesn't matter if your baggage was handed to you or you developed it on your own. It's yours now and you need to deal with it.

I'm no psychologist, but from this (and other) messages, it sounds like your parents/family are not comfortable dealing with emotions, feelings, or anything that's not "normal". They clam up. It sounds like your parents are uncomfortable in their own skin. They have passed this on to you.

So now you don't know how to deal with your emotions. You need one or two really good friends. Not just people to dump your emotional baggage on, though. They will dump you very fast if that's all they get out of it. You need a good friend who you have fun with, who just happens to also be a good listener.

But friends like that don't grow on trees. I really have no suggestions on how to find a friend like that. Much like lovers, good friends just pop up with no warning when you're not looking for them

You also need to be around people who can deal constructively with their emotional baggage. You have no role models, so you don't know what to do. You're flailing. Again, I have no constructive ideas on how to find people like this. Not even sure whether it needs to be a friend or a lover.

You've gotten very far: you've identified your biggest problems and are trying to attack them. It will take time; it won't be overnight.

Open your eyes and your heart to new friends. Don't immediately dump your emotional baggage on them. But test the waters and see if they are good listeners and have good advice.

You need to open up a little more emotionally. Yes, you often get hurt that way, but your life will be miserably if you always keep everything bottled up. Again, this takes time, but you're going down the right path.

 

[Lube]

Oops. I typed my previous reply before your second post got posted.

In any case, a couple more things:

> I don't know how to give or receive physical affection

You know, it's funny. Before I came out (to myself), I was a very uptight person. I did not like public physical shows of affection (not even a neck rub or back rub)--not giving or receiving them. I flinched if people touched me. (But I was always very good with animals. They were safe territory.)

Ever since I came out, I'm much more tactile. Not with strangers of course. And not just with lovers. (Although I'm even very tactile with hookups, and that freaks out a lot of guys! Unfortunately, I think it sends mixed messages, too. It's something I'm learning to deal with.) I now freely show my mother affection by patting her on the back or rubbing her neck if she's having a bad day. It is so unlike my family to do stuff like that, but it's obvious it makes her more comfortable & relaxed when I do it.

So there is hope. You can move beyond your family's bad examples and be your own person.

And in terms of the trip with the "friend": well, he must've asked for a reason, and whether it's sex or friendship, it's someone who knows your baggage and who you can, um, dump on. So just go and see what happens after you have some more deep conversations. Just go with the flow.

 

[hanshansen]

It sounds like your parents/family are not comfortable dealing with emotions, feelings, or anything that's not "normal". They clam up. It sounds like your parents are uncomfortable in their own skin. They have passed this on to you.

Yes. My poor parents ... my father is in his own way a very tough and broad-minded person, but he just does not talk about personal issues ... my mother is even more riddled with fears and anxieties than I am.

You need one or two really good friends. Not just people to dump your emotional baggage on, though. They will dump you very fast if that's all they get out of it. You need a good friend who you have fun with, who just happens to also be a good listener.

In fairness to me, I think I do have a few friends like that, or people who are developing into friends like that (maybe four or five). I know that's something I can't prove to you ... but spending time with them is fun, and they haven't dumped me yet .

They don't grow on trees, and unfortunately those friendships take a lot of time and work to build. Maybe that's one of the issues: I've only known the people I'm talking about for a year or less. That's not a long time.

You're right, I don't have role models. I know people who have similar baggage to me (and are also having to find their way as we speak) and I know people who've either never had that baggage or got over it 15 years ago.

Much like lovers, good friends just pop up with no warning when you're not looking for them

How do you square that with what you've said elsewhere to people trying to move on (something like 'if you're not looking for a bf, you have issues')? I mean, are there things you can do to make it more or less likely that you'll find people with the potential to be friends like that? You're obviously not going to make them in bars or at cocktail parties.

 

[hanshansen]

So there is hope.

That's good to know .

BTW the people who I dump my baggage on are also allowed to dump theirs on me. In fact, they tend to make the first move .

 

[Lube]

Lube said:

Much like lovers, good friends just pop up with no warning when you're not looking for them

How do you square that with what you've said elsewhere to people trying to move on (something like 'if you're not looking for a bf, you have issues')? I mean, are there things you can do to make it more or less likely that you'll find people with the potential to be friends like that? You're obviously not going to make them in bars or at cocktail parties.

Wow, you've got a memory like a vise!

Yes I did say that, but in a totally different context. It was a guy who was in love with a straight best friend, if I remember correctly. What I meant was that if he had closed his mind to anyone else, then he was still stuck on this str8 guy and he was in an untenable situation that would never resolve itself. I probably should've said "open to finding" a bf, rather than "looking".

So, yes, you should be "open" to finding bf's or just friends where ever you are. I found my best friend (yes he's straight, and yes he's good looking, but I've never hit on him and never will. His wife and kids wouldn't like that, and I just can't get excited at someone who would not be excited sexually about me) at a job I was at once many years ago. We hit it off then, and he (and his wife) have been with me through the divorce and coming out (he's the first one I told). Our relationship has waxed and waned over the years, but it's very very strong right now and I'm thrilled that we have more time to have fun together. His kids are amazing, too. He & his wife are great sounding boards for advice.

 

[hanshansen]

Ever since I came out, I'm much more tactile. Not with strangers of course. And not just with lovers. (Although I'm even very tactile with hookups, and that freaks out a lot of guys! Unfortunately, I think it sends mixed messages, too. It's something I'm learning to deal with.)

Could you clarify the last bit in the parentheses?

The fact is, when you touch people, you're sending signals, just like when you talk to them or look at them, or via your body language.

Do you think the way in which you're tactile is something you've got better at? How have you learned? (It's not easy to practice in a culture which isn't touchy-feely.) How do you know who to be tactile with, when, and in what way?

To touch people in a way that makes them feel good, you need some kind of, I don't know, physical empathy. I totally lack that. When I touch somebody else I find it hard to relate that to what it would feel like if someone did it to me, it is just such an unfamiliar experience. So for safety's sake I avoid physical contact.

Maybe that's the root of the issue. Maybe that's also why I'm so scared of sexual contact, I have no idea how I would make the other person feel and am afraid whatever they did end up feeling would be bad.

The guy who I'm going on vacation with is very tactile, and very good at it (he's in sales ) ... that was a big part of the reason why he got as far with me as he did, he sort of initiated physical contact in a discreet way that made me feel relaxed (as much as that was possible at the time) and also turned me on. Throughout the night he made a big effort to get me comfortable with the idea of physical contact, including putting my arm around him when we were supposed to go to sleep, etc. When we meet up (socially) he still gives me these light touches on my upper or (occasionally) lower back which are kind of nice to receive. So whatever other doubts I may have, this is someone who I do feel physically comfortable with.

Other people have tried to hit on me by brushing against me etc. but that got them nowhere, it was just obnoxious ... maybe they were just too clumsy or persistent. So it's a fine line.

 

[hanshansen]

That rings a great many bells.

I had no sense of attachment to other people until the last few years. I couldn't feel loved and didn't know how to express love. I didn't feel any affinity with others ... I was hindered by family issues and various other issues and had no idea what I was lacking in my life and so wandered through it until my late 30s like a dumb animal, constantly getting into trouble and constantly getting hurt by others - in a world of isolation and pain. My bubble only 'burst' in the last couple of years

That could all be about me, except that I am a bit younger than you, I'm 29 ... so my bubble would have received its first pricks around 5 years ago, when I was in graduate school. That's when I started to discover that people my own age can actually be nice.

Reading your post reminds me that I am in many ways very lucky. I got a lot of love when I was young, I come from a supportive home, it's just that for various reasons I felt different from anyone my own age and neither my parents nor I were able to handle that, so I ended up retreating into the bubble ... I'm also lucky because I have got to know quite a few people who have also had to do a lot of conscious work on their 'soft' skills (they are now very good at it) and I have received invaluable advice and support from them ... like you say, I have had access to things like this forum ... when it comes to engaging with others in general I am not the same person I was even a year or two ago. It's just this physical contact thing, which I'm still pretty clueless about. And the suspicion that I've not handled the 'coming out' thing at all well.

It sounds like you had it a lot harder than me, and it also sounds like you have done pretty well. You have no idea how comforting that is, thank you.

 

[Lube]

Originally Posted by Lube
(Although I'm even very tactile with hookups, and that freaks out a lot of guys! Unfortunately, I think it sends mixed messages, too. It's something I'm learning to deal with.)

Could you clarify the last bit in the parentheses?

In a nutshell:

My first few times with men were with very aloof men. No strings sex, but also no emotion sex. No touching or cuddling beforehand or afterward. No kissing. No backrubs or footrubs. No smooshing faces together. No rubbing beards.

Nada.

Luckily, that changed over time. I found more men that were mature and together, and could handle a little emotion/caressing before/during/after sex. Even kinky guys can be cuddly.

But as you say it's a fine line. You don't want to be too cuddly. You don't want the guy to think you want a relationship or anything. Maybe a fuckbuddy, but not a bf.

So you have to be careful. But you don't have to be ice cold, either.

 

[hanshansen]

I'd read a book or two about body language if I were you, there's also plenty of material on the web and even on YouTube.

Thanks for that. Have a very busy few days ahead but will look into it. The youtube examples may be very useful. I did read a book called The Definitive Guide to Body Language, by Pease and Alan, recently (recommended to me by the guy who cuts my hair).

p.p.s. Do you want to elaborate on the "suspicion that I've not handled the 'coming out' thing at all well"?

Oh, I don't know. I don't think I've painted myself into any serious corners, but I'm not exactly happy where I am, either.

I'm not totally closeted by I am also not very 'out'.

I am 'out' in the sense that I have few or no issues with socialising with my gay friends in public places and with strangers making assumptions. I wouldn't feel self-conscious or censor myself in a restaurant, for example.

With respect to most of my friends I am closeted in the sense that they assume that I am metro but hetero and I don't deny that. They don't ask any awkward questions and so that's not caused me any practical problems. But, it seems very stupid to the extent that my circle of straight friends includes gay guys who I am not out to and hence feel awkward around.

As I said, I ended up actively coming out to several people where the situation seemed to demand it. In each case there was massive angst beforehand. In a couple of cases, it led to me and the person getting a lot closer, so that was worth it. In other cases (my parents, an ex-housemate, a current housemate) the subject never came up again and they all seem to be in denial, or behave as if they are. It is frustrating because it means I can't talk to them about relationship stuff. I suspect that the way in which I broached the subject was vague and cloaked in metaphors and obviously uncomfortable. Possibly more than was optimal.

I wonder if the 'bi' label is giving me problems. It is how I identify, and it's s true in a technical sense. However, what I've discovered is that in the foreseeable future, if I end up with anyone it'll be a guy, because I need to be with someone who has some empathy for all the shit I've been through. So in an important practical sense it's misleading. I have no idea how to get that across to anyone without calling myself gay, which I don't want to do because it would cast a lot of my behaviour into question.

I said I'm not happy where I am. Me not being out is one of the reasons why I don't feel able to actively date, i.e. approach strangers with the aim of dating them. I wouldn't be able to explain it to my friends and it's part of the baggage that would make it hard to get close to the person I was dating. (This is not the same as randomly meeting someone, i.e. a guy, and becoming interested in that person - that's something I would be able to explain.)

The other problem is that I've made a separate set of potentially very close friends through the gay support group I have gone to for over a year. They matter enough to me that I would like to integrate them into the rest of my life. But at this stage I don't feel able to do that. As individuals, yes, but not all of them at once. I am terrified of anyone finding out that I have been going to this support group. I have told a tiny number of people (all at least bi) but that was very hard and even now I feel like apologising for it. Also, one of my friends from this group is very gay and eccentric (going way beyond metro). I've become used to that and discovered what a great person he is but I'm not sure that's something most of my friends could easily handle.

 

[hanshansen]

You might take some time to read my thread/post here hanshansen:

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222415[

Noel, that's an incredible turnaround in the space of a week or so (assuming the dates on your thread are correct). Thank you for the link.

Not sure we are exactly in the same boat. When I started confronting my sexuality (about 1 1/2 years ago) I did go through massive sexual confusion and the bi label gave me a name for that. I seriously thought I was condemned to ride the two horses forever, as you put it.

I still identify with my straight friends in some ways and with my gay friends in others. I hate it when they try to pull me over to their side, I don't feel totally comfortable on either side, and I don't know if I ever will.

But something about what you say does ring true. Let me try to express things my way.

This weekend was awful, I felt as bad as I haven't done in ages, but I think I also achieved some clarity and made some progress.

I've realised that, however else I may feel, I will in all likelihood end up with a guy. As I said, I need to be with someone who has some understanding of my past and current predicaments. I've talked to gay friends about gay relationship issues. I've had a sexual experience with a guy and largely worked through all the confused feelings that were the result of that. I've also worked through a situation with a guy where I put my feelings on the line and had to think realistically about what it would mean to build a relationship with this person. After all that I am exhausted. I can't go back to square one, I don't want to. I can't try to find a girl who will be understanding and risk a whole lot of incomprehension and rejection along the way, I can't talk to my straight friends about the basics of straight relationships, I can't go through the same sexual angst again (all I know about straight sex is from porn and a nude lap dance I was given) - all just because some people think it would be good for me. It is too hard.

In some ways it is really good to know that. It gives me something definite to work towards. Being constantly non-committal is very stressful, as you say, and I think it also makes people guarded towards you (if only in very subtle ways), because they don't know where they stand.

This morning I actually had the vaunted 'weight falling off shoulders' feeling. The weight has come back a little, my life is still very much a building site. But as I was walking to work I felt as optimistic and free of physical strain as I have done in ages. I think I realised for a moment how much I am still guided by how other people might see me, and that it's not necessary.

I've started to reevaluate the upwardly mobile 'metro' environment that I've discovered over the last year or two. It's been liberating, there are many aspects of it that I've totally bought into, if I had to choose an off-the-shelf lifestyle that would probably be it. But it is not fully me, either.

What I'm working towards is ownership of my own life.

It may matter to other people what I am, but what matters to me is finding a way of life that works best for me. And I should feel free to pursue that.

There's a couple of things I can do differently with regard to the 'coming out' issue. If people (people who matter) ask me if I'm pursuing girl X, or suchlike, I don't have to give evasive answers, I can make it clearer that such a thing is unlikely to happen. I can sit down and figure out how to put a simple and positive spin on what my situation is, so that I can get over the fear of having to 'explain myself'. There must be a way. I mean, it is not that shameful to have gone through sexual confusion and to have reached a particular outcome.

It has also been really good to pinpoint the physical contact issues I have, that's another specific thing I can monitor and try to improve.

Thanks again, your responses to this thread have been really, really helpful.

 

[hanshansen]

God, I may have spoken to soon. Massive anxiety attacks the entire night. Feel like death.

Caught up with the friend who turned me down recently (he had been overseas for several weeks) and some mutual friends yesterday.

Here's the anxiety: I know when that kind of thing happens the dynamics of a friendship change. What I do NOT want to happen, what I am scared shitless of happening, is that there ends up being this radioactive area which everyone is afraid of coming close to and so things regress to the level of small talk. And I got the sense last night that we may be moving in that direction. I hope I can steer us back out.

I went through similar anxiety when deciding to come out to close friends.

It also happened with the guy who I'm going on the island vacation with.

This is related to stuff discussed in this thread. I'm the one who sees the radioactive areas and retreats, and a lot of people follow my lead.

 

[hanshansen]

Thank you for giving me some perspective. God, why do I always have to lose it at times when I should be resting (nights, weekends).

With regard to my friend (and other people), I guess all I can do is to be friendly and open and to give of myself where it seems appropriate. What they do with that is not in my hands.

I turned and said to my therapist that I had nothing left to live for - except myself - and it was then that things changed - I decided to live for myself, not for anyone else's approval, affection, love, friendship etc. - just lived for me.

That's sort of how I felt yesterday morning. I no longer felt alone with my troubles, but independent and in command of my life, which is quite a different thing. It felt pretty fantastic.

Ownership also includes owning your 'demons' as well as your 'blessings'. The struggle between Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is one that we all go through and it is an entirely artificial struggle caused in the main by social and cultural hand me down baggage - the truth of the matter is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde are one and the same person and the 'evil' that is one is a part of the other and it doesn't need to be killed or destroyed. It is in embracing our fears and our 'evil' side that we become whole people.

Are you saying that we need to choose how to deal with the demons in the way that works best for us?

With so many of my demons, for most of my life I just assumed that they were indeed demons, and that the only way of dealing with them was to cast them out. I never questioned it.

A friend of mine said to me a couple of months ago that one of the big turning points in his life was when he started to put his energy into building on his strengths rather than attacking his weaknesses. He lives with his weaknesses unless they're obviously a problem - for him, in terms of his goals. He said he's ended up where he wants to be faster, and he's had a lot more fun and successes on the way, than he would have done otherwise.

This is totally not how I have been brought up to think (damn that Protestantism) .

 

[hanshansen]

OK, last question.

Personally speaking I would go out of my way to act normally with this friend who turned you down - make it seem like nothing has changed and he will either follow suit gladly because he wants everything to be normal or he will have the chutzpah to bring it up himself.

How do you act like nothing has changed while acknowledging that this stuff has happened and sending the signal that if the conversation comes close to that area (e.g. by talking about relationships), that is OK?

 

[hanshansen]

I have watched the entire two seasons ... just out of interest ... which two episodes ?

I've now finished seeing season 1. Have yet to download season 2.

I can't remember exactly which episode. I think it was the one with the psychopathic psychotherapist. There was this scene where Dexter and Rita are on the sofa and massaging each others' feet, and she is telling him about her issues with her ex ... there's another scene where Dexter avoids sex with Rita because if she gets that close to him and looks into his eyes, she'll see the emptiness ... later, of course, he gets over his hang-ups after 'embracing' his murderous urges as part of himself ... it is all very corny, but I just totally lost it watching that.

Anyway hanshansen ... maybe you lack a 'soulmate' ... not necessarily a 'lover' but a close friend that you can relate to and confide in.

Finbar, I only started making friends of my own choosing about a year ago. I only started to get to the confiding stage with some of those friends half a year ago or so.

Given that short time-frame, it doesn't make that much sense to talk about 'best friends' or 'soulmates' or suchlike. What I've got is a couple of people who I can talk about serious issues with and who seem to be sticking by me, who seem to see interest and potential in me and in whom I see those things in turn. I might be able to call them best friends or soul-mates in another couple of years' time when a bit more water has flowed under the bridge.

The closest thing to a soul-mate I have at the moment is the guy who turned me down a few weeks ago. He understands things like the anxiety attacks, the desire to achieve self-reliance and how good it feels when you do, the difficulty of establishing a feeling of belonging in a world where people your age already have a tight-knit circle of friends and you don't (me because I lived under a rock, him because he moved around a lot, both of us because we were closeted and have kept other people at arm's length). I see something like a positive reflection of myself in him because he is also a good-hearted and optimistic and principled person.

I don't have time to explain how or why (the only thing I want to emphasize is that I didn't force it) but he and I talked about a lot of these things last night and whatever else may be the case, I no longer think there is any danger of us regressing to small-talk level. That means a great deal to me.

 

[hanshansen]

I want to post an update on this. I went through a very bad patch when I started this thread, and one thing I realised was that I'd made things hard for myself by (explicitly) outing myself to only a few of my friends. Among other things I said:

The other problem is that I've made a separate set of potentially very close friends through the gay support group I have gone to for over a year. They matter enough to me that I would like to integrate them into the rest of my life. But at this stage I don't feel able to do that. As individuals, yes, but not all of them at once. I am terrified of anyone finding out that I have been going to this support group. I have told a tiny number of people (all at least bi) but that was very hard and even now I feel like apologising for it. Also, one of my friends from this group is very gay and eccentric (going way beyond metro). I've become used to that and discovered what a great person he is but I'm not sure that's something most of my friends could easily handle.

I gave a party the other weekend at which these people showed up. It was an awesome night, one of the best parties I've given. And there was no issue with my friends from the support group being there (though I told them before the party that I wanted to decide whether I told people that I knew them from that group - they were fine with that, and it turned out not to be necessary).

(As an aside, after the party I made the decision to leave the support group because I want my friends from the group in my life as individuals, not as members of the group. I also don't really need the group any more.)

Hard to overstate how happy I am with that outcome. The parts of my life are finally coming together, it seems. And the inference I can make is that if I just continue to do what seems right to me, my friends will be fine with it. I'm in a good space.

 

[954dude]

You seem to have had a lot of internal conflict with yourself and it's nice to see that it's shaping out to become less of a problem. Keep taking good care of yourself.