Two Questions for Obama Supporters.

[iman]

Lanny Davis has posed these two questions to Senator Obama, but since we are not likely to get a response, I'll pose them to The Senator's supporters.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/two_questions_for_senator_obam.html

1. If a white minister preached sermons to his congregation and had used the "N" word and used rhetoric and words similar to members of the KKK, would you support a Democratic presidential candidate who decided to continue to be a member of that congregation?

2. Would you support that candidate if, after knowing of or hearing those sermons, he or she still appointed that minister to serve on his or her "Religious Advisory Committee" of his or her presidential campaign?

 

[springboksfan]

They can't answer, iman. Their hypocrisy would be too evident.

 

[byro]

1. You can't make the comparison; it's infelicitous.

In the first place, there is no equivalent in the African American vocabulary for the word "nigger" (honky? whitey? please...). That in itself is very telling and underscores the apples-and-oranges weakness inherent in Davis's question. To be a white minister ranting against blacks and calling them "niggers" would of course be repugnant and unacceptable and of course I would not support the candidate under those circumstances. But I'm sorry, it's not co-equal when you flip the equation. Whites don't have a 300 year history of being oppressed (enslaved!) by blacks. A racist white man's racism is based purely and simply on dislike of another person's color. A black racist's racism is based on those 300 years of horrific treatment and is therefore founded on something real. That doesn't make his racism OK or healthy or healing, but it does make it on some level understandable.

So to answer the question, of course I wouldn't. But the comparison is offensive and insensitive -- false -- to begin with.

2. See # 1.

 

[JackFTwist]

Oh, mods baiting now. How quaint.

Since question 1 isn't analogous with Wright, and question 2 builds on a false assumption, these questions don't require an answer from Obama supporters.

good post - and exactly right

but even more - little gotcha questions are a staple of 3rd graders and very poor thinkers

remember these people are in favor of someone who voted for war with Iraq -

five years later...

back in the day, we voted for peace candidates - some of us still do

 

[JackFTwist]

I'd say the same to byro's post, who goes in great detail on why it isn't analogous

definitely agreed

 

[Lostlover]

1. Bill Clinton the husband of Hillary didn't think Wright was a bad guy.

2. We already have religious nuts taking the lead in the White House now. Minus what Wright said about Whites, I agreed with what he said. America partially made some of the problems that we're experiencing the consequences of.

It think its always funny when gay guys of all people claim to care about religion. And what pastors say. The odd part, as with a lot of black pastors and reverends (Sharpton and Jackson come to mind) who have been very pro-gay and pro-gay rights. I wouldn't be surprised if Wright believes you should be treated like your heterosexual counterparts.

But that is cute though, gay men caring about religion but they wouldn't take a step inside a church.

I answered your questions Iman. Now can you answer mine. You've been dodging this question.

How can you be pro-pedophile for those caught on Dateline's "To Catch a Predator" series but yet at the same time you want to crucify Obama for what his pastor said?

 

[Raincoat Massacre]

And now we can all finish up with a nice wet tounge up each others ass's...

 

[iman]

The comparison is valid. There can be no excuse for racism, hate or lying. Every individual has their own history, many have suffered. Every ethnic group, Jews, Irish etc. have their own history of suffering. The African American experience is particularly horrendous and requires empathy and understanding; nevertheless, standards apply to all of us.

Dr. Wright comes from a middle class Philadelphia background, he is well educated and a moral, ethical and political leader in his community. Is it wrong to expect better from him? From Obama?

History has too many Black Heroes like King or Mandella and so many more to excuse Wright his racist appeals. To suggest that men like Wright be held to a lesser standard is insulting to all people.

May I recommend Professor Dershowitz's excellent book:
The Abuse Excuse: And Other Cop-outs, Sob Stories, and Evasions of Responsibility


"When neither law nor the facts are on your clients side, argue abuse".

 

[iman]

I answered your questions Iman. Now can you answer mine. You've been dodging this question.

How can you be pro-pedophile for those caught on Dateline's "To Catch a Predator" series but yet at the same time you want to crucify Obama for what his pastor said?

This was exhaustively discussed in an old thread and obviously I am not "Pro-pedophile" because I dislike your favorite show. You are just trying to change the subject. Stay on topic.

 

[Raincoat Massacre]

How can you be pro-pedophile for those caught on Dateline's "To Catch a Predator" series but yet at the same time you want to crucify Obama for what his pastor said?

Now who's flip flopping?

 

[Lostlover]

This was exhaustively discussed in an old thread and obviously I am not "Pro-pedophile" because I dislike your favorite show. You are just trying to change the subject. Stay on topic.

I answered your questions, I am on topic.

Jeremiah Wright doesn't bother me. He isn't running for president. He's of your generation and has an archaic view on race.

You were getting your panties in a bunch at pedophiles being embarrassed on Tv and now you're criticizing Obama for what his ex-pastor says. I just asked you to clear that rationale which you're refusing to do because there are so many holes in your agenda driven statements.

 

[iman]

1. Bill Clinton the husband of Hillary didn't think Wright was a bad guy.

Did Clinton stand there for 20 years? Did Wright address him as President of the US of KKK?

One thing we know about Clinton, he would not stay silent when confronted with outrageous charges. He was never afraid to speak his mind. He was not a bargainer, a compromiser. He was a fighter.

 

[opinterph]

… You've been dodging this question.

How can you be pro-pedophile for those caught on Dateline's "To Catch a Predator" series but yet …

Lostlover,

You ask a “loaded question” and then wonder why the member to whom it is directed “dodges” that question. Your question is inappropriate, impolite, and a violation of the Rules of Engagement. The proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question, as iman has done.

Please do not disrupt the flow of conversation by making statements or insinuations that are deliberately inflammatory or which expand a disagreement from one discussion to anotherhttp://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125604.

 

[Lostlover]

Lostlover,

You ask a “loaded question” and then wonder why the member to whom it is directed “dodges” that question. Your question is inappropriate, impolite, and a violation of the Rules of Engagement. The proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question, as iman has done.

Please do not disrupt the flow of conversation by making statements or insinuations that are deliberately inflammatory or which expand a disagreement from one discussion to anotherhttp://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125604.

Opinterph,

Iman and his chronies didn't believe Obama's supporters would answer his questions and we did. This thread was going to hell in a hand basket when the mod in the second post extended the baiting not even giving Obama's supporters a chance to reply...

I had a question for him that he's been dodging for months now. I only wanted him to return the favor after I answered his loaded and hypothetical questions.

Normally I wouldn't have answered such a thread based on "what would happen" kind of scenarios. I just wanted Iman to answer questions I had for him so I responded in this volatile thread.

My statements are only inflammatory because they point out going from siding with pedophiles on a reality TV show to downing someone (Obama) for something someone else said. It's to bring attention that it makes absolutely no sense that you can defend one of the worst kinds of people but fault someone for something he didn't say. It's related to this baiting thread as it points out the worst kind of hypocrisy.

This was a baiting thread. I answered it and had a question of my own that Iman's been dodging.

I will not get off topic again, but I seriously thought it was something just between Iman and me. It's over with. He doesn't want to answer it.

LL

 

[Kulindahr]

The questions are wrong.
The serious work has been done for me, here:

1. You can't make the comparison; it's infelicitous.

In the first place, there is no equivalent in the African American vocabulary for the word "nigger" (honky? whitey? please...). That in itself is very telling and underscores the apples-and-oranges weakness inherent in Davis's question. To be a white minister ranting against blacks and calling them "niggers" would of course be repugnant and unacceptable and of course I would not support the candidate under those circumstances. But I'm sorry, it's not co-equal when you flip the equation. Whites don't have a 300 year history of being oppressed (enslaved!) by blacks. A racist white man's racism is based purely and simply on dislike of another person's color. A black racist's racism is based on those 300 years of horrific treatment and is therefore founded on something real. That doesn't make his racism OK or healthy or healing, but it does make it on some level understandable.

So to answer the question, of course I wouldn't. But the comparison is offensive and insensitive -- false -- to begin with.

2. See # 1.

and here:

Oh, mods baiting now. How quaint.

Since question 1 isn't analogous with Wright, and question 2 builds on a false assumption, these questions don't require an answer from Obama supporters.

One thing we know about Clinton, he would not stay silent when confronted with outrageous charges. He was never afraid to speak his mind. He was not a bargainer, a compromiser. He was a fighter.

Right.
He'd redefine the charges, and ask profound things like what the meaning of "is" is. He was never afraid to speak his mind, except when breaking a campaign promise or caught lying. And he wasn't a bargainer or compromiser except when he was being a manipulator, which was most of the time.
And he never had sex with that woman.

 

[Nishin]

1. Bill Clinton the husband of Hillary didn't think Wright was a bad guy.
[...]

2. We already have religious nuts taking the lead in the White House now. Minus what Wright said about Whites, I agreed with what he said. America partially made some of the problems that we're experiencing the consequences of.

[...]

I answered your questions Iman.

Your "answers" have nothing to do with the questions asked ... someone as "educated" as you claim to be should know that writing something doesn't equate answering a question... are you not pretending to be a teacher?? Guess your student must have very high marks if just writing down a number and a few words qualifies as answering a question asked... LOL

 

[big_guy]

If one has seen the clips of Wright's rant and cannot see that he is fomenting black racisim, hatred of ALL whites by smearing every white with every conceibable evil in the black experience, then I think it is useless to attempt to explain it.

The first question to Obama may have been "infelicitous" in the sense that if honestly ansered it would hurt his candidacy, but it assuredly was not invidiously comparative, exept to those willing to condone in a balck preacher what he would condemn in a man of any other race whatever his profession. There are those among us who have a clear conscience on the subject of racism who find it more than a little offensive to be told we must accept as gospel the claim of a man who refuses explicitly to condemn the kind of hate speech his good friend spouts repeatedly. And the kind of stupid and irresponsible anti-American charges as that whites created the AIDS virus as a tool of genocide for use against blacks, or that our government was complicit in 9-11, or alternatively, that it is not the terrorists' actions which must be condemned, but the victims'. Pitiful.

 

[Kulindahr]

There are those among us who have a clear conscience on the subject of racism who find it more than a little offensive to be told we must accept as gospel the claim of a man who refuses explicitly to condemn the kind of hate speech his good friend spouts repeatedly. And the kind of stupid and irresponsible anti-American charges as that whites created the AIDS virus as a tool of genocide for use against blacks, or that our government was complicit in 9-11, or alternatively, that it is not the terrorists' actions which must be condemned, but the victims'. Pitiful.

Are you reading news reports with holes in them?
I presume you're referring to Obama: I've now seen clips of him on three separate occasions explicitly condemning and rejecting Wright's inflammatory, racist remarks.

 

[miatajeff]

5 years ago when the bush invaded Iraq after misleading the US Senate, Congress and the American people those who criticized the bush were called unpatriotic traitors.

Today when someone criticizes Obama, they are called racist.

I am a lifelong Democrat, left leaning, politically active (I am a state delegate), person who has spent countless hours reading about Obama.
Every new thing I learn about him convinces me more that he is not an acceptable candidate for President.

The most important quality a President can have is to surround themselves with brilliant minds. Obama has surrounded himself with thieves, bigots, imbeciles and mean-spirited, ill-informed politicos who have spent there lives crafting the very establishment he claims he will overhaul.

While Hillary is very far from perfect, she has the know how and is smart enough to surround herself with people who know how to get things done.

Even McCain wasn't dumb enough to send his campaign staff to a foreign country to foul up foreign policy concepts-at least he did that one on his own.

 

[kallipolis]

The most important quality a President can have is to surround themselves with brilliant minds. Obama has surrounded himself with thieves, bigots, imbeciles and mean-spirited, ill-informed politicos who have spent there lives crafting the very establishment he claims he will overhaul.

Please elucidate and provide us with some examples, according to your understanding. Thank you.