Tyler Clementi

[BINOWGAYLATER]

Attacks made on someone because of certain characteristic I would say are most of the time not purported to intimidate the group they belong to.


wow - I bet the KKK would be kinda surprised to hear this !

Lets just put these two fucktards away under whatever "laws" the District Attorney can convince a jury to find them guilty of. Play the gay card -- why not? . 15 years doesn't seem like enuff for "causing" the poor kid to take his own life.. Yes, in my book, they killed him.. same as putting a gun to his head. so a "hate crime" with a lesser sentence doesn't seem like nearly enuff !! I want him fucked daily in Gen Pop - by a long line of Axe murders.

 

[Telstra]

yes construct. Hate crime is a serious crime.

I still don't think Tyler Clementi's case is a hate crime.
Those two made a very stupid mistake = hate crime ? They didn't urge Clementi to kill himself.
you guys are over the top.

 

[terry751]

A clever prosecutor will find a way to make charges stick. Personally, I wouldn't lose any sleep over the guy if he's found guilty and has to do some jail time. I just hope in the end, even if he's found innocent, that young LGBT people know they're not alone and they don't have to take this kind of treatment.

 

[BINOWGAYLATER]

in an unrelated incident -- in the news today - some published State budget information which came from the Connecticut state legislature, or the governor IDK - had a statement which said .......too many chiefs and not enough indians..... seeing this - the "chiefs" which run one of the two indian casinos there were outraged ! (and rightly so, right?)
but will someone be punished -- ? doubtful -- there was another statement talked about on the radio - about an apology and "it will never happen again" - this is total bullshit ! What the hell are those idiots thinking? heads need to roll for this kind of bullshit -- this goes beyone "insensitivity" -- it goes straight to STUPIDITY..and someone should be raked over the hot coals (nekked) fined, suspended - and thretened with other bodily harm -
will it happen no !
it's not a hate crime - it's a crime of stupidity !!

 

[construct]

yes construct. Hate crime is a serious crime.

I still don't think Tyler Clementi's case is a hate crime.
Those two made a very stupid mistake = hate crime ? They didn't urge Clementi to kill himself.

That's right. And I don't think it's necessary to show that they urged him to do anything. It's not necessary to show that they had any intention whatsoever that Clementi die in order for this to be a hate crime, if I understand the charges correctly. Is there a murder or manslaughter charge involved? I may have missed it.

 

[construct]

That's right. And I don't think it's necessary to show that they urged him to do anything. It's not necessary to show that they had any intention whatsoever that Clementi die in order for this to be a hate crime, if I understand the charges correctly. Is there a murder or manslaughter charge involved? I may have missed it.

I went back to the article linked in the first post. Notice

from the article:

Dharun Ravi, 19, was indicted in Middlesex County on 15 counts including bias intimidation and invasion of privacy in events that predated the suicide of 18-year-old Tyler Clementi, who in death started a national conversation on the perils of bullying.


Ravi had already faced invasion of privacy charges along with another Rutgers student, Molly Wei. It took prosecutors months to present their case to a grand jury alleging that Ravi targeted Clementi because of his sexual orientation and tried to broadcast the encounter online to intimidate his roommate.

No mention is made there of a homicide charge of any kind.

 

[Telstra]

I'm sure some of you guys at age 19 did some "hate crime" too. Why are you guys not in jail ?

 

[construct]

I was only bringing up homicide as an example, not related to this case. This was clearly one of intimidation and invasion of privacy... a hate crime doesn't have to be a murder. It can be apply to a variety of crimes.

For example (just an example), property damage with racist symbols can be a hate crime. I did a little searching:

http://www.ksby.com/news/police-cross-burning-treated-as-hate-crime-from-the-start/

The charge of a hate crime can apply to a variety of crimes.

Yes. Thanks for restating the point. In this case, the hate crime charge attaches to the invasion of privacy and whichever other charges might be appropriate--probably not the obstruction charges, for example.

 

[construct]

I'm sure some of you guys at age 19 did some "hate crime" too. Why are you guys not in jail ?

They didn't have hate crime laws when I was 19. Oh yeah, and I've never been convicted of anything worse than failure to yield. It's kind of hard to make running a red light into a hate crime.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hate crimes legislation does not create "ordinary victims" and "privileged victims."

It recognizes only that some people are "specially targeted victims" of crime, and that we find that to be another layer of odiousness. Someone getting into a scuffle at the door of a bar and assaulting another patron is different than someone who says to his buddies "Let's go bash us a fag tonight!"

BTW, what goes through people's minds matters as much as their actions in every single court case. The concept is called mens rea ("guilty mind") and it matters as much as the action or the outcome. The mental states and attitudes of the accused always matter.

To add to this -- and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned -- there's another concept, enshrined nicely in a movie by the same name, called "absence of malice". That's nothing but trying to figure out not merely the motive, but the mental state of the accused.

yes construct. Hate crime is a serious crime.

I still don't think Tyler Clementi's case is a hate crime.
Those two made a very stupid mistake = hate crime ? They didn't urge Clementi to kill himself.
you guys are over the top.

As was already pointed out, it doesn't have to do with death at all, it has to do with the reason for what they did. Littering could be a hate crime, if the motivation is there. Someplace I lived had a charge of "malicious littering", which was littering meant to do harm -- something I heard about because of a case involving a college prank of scattering trash on a lawn -- some of which leached out chemicals that killed spots in the lawn. The jury had to decide if the intent had been to kill spots in the lawn, a matter of deciding what the frat boys had been thinking, i.e. whether they intended to do harm to the lawn. Another I remember was spraying a lawn with chemicals in a certain pattern; one chemical was a fertilizer that turned the grass a deep, dark green, the other something that turned it a sick yellow shade. The colors persisted for weeks. The jury had to decide if the college guys had meant to inflict the long-term mental harm -- again, discerning the thoughts of the perpetrators.

The law is no stranger to what's involved in deciding whether something is a hate crime.

 

[Telstra]

Like?

I have not ever been indicted for anything, nor have I committed any wrong doing targeting someone with malicious, criminal intent.

Okay, I get it. You don't have an argument.

Hate crimes are attached to criminal charges... are you saying some here have been charged as such?

I'm saying you guys tell me your history of regrets/mistake and i'll judge if it was a "hate crime" ...

 

[Telstra]

Suicide is very complex.
Lets get the facts right.

Filming the gay having sex, maybe making fun of him, the gay gets really upset, feels helpless and killed himself = hate crime

 

[NedNickerson]

Understanding the Hate Crime Charges in the Rutgers Suicide

Many have also called for hate crime charges in the case, and those came through. But why four? Well, there were two incidents--one successful and one attempted--and while the completion of the offense matters for charges like invasion of privacy, the "bias" charges are essentially riders to the privacy charges, as the language in the indictment indicates: "Dharun Ravi, on our about Sept 19, 2010... did commit the offense of Invasion of Privacy... with the purpose to intimidate T.C. and/or M.B. because of sexual orientation." The hate-crime charges, known technically as "bias intimidation," serve to add time to the eventual sentence.

So where do the four invasion of privacy charges come from? As Middlesex County prosecutor spokesman John O'Neill, explained to The Atlantic Wire via telephone, "There are different counts that lead to different events ... they cover different actions." Ravi faces two invasion of privacy charges--one for "observing" Clementi and M.B. (as his partner is identified) in a situation "where a reasonable person would know that another may expose intimate parts or engage in sexual penetration or sexual conduct"--and a second, more serious charge, for "disclosing a photograph, film, videotape, recording or other reproduction of the image" of Clementi and M.B. There are two more attempted invasion of privacy charges for the incident on Sept. 21st.

Full article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20...ndinghatecrimechargesagainstdharunravi36873_1

Bias Intimidation as defined by New Jersey law:
http://www.nj-statute-info.com/getStatute.php?statute_id=1576

 

[fetaby]

Filming the guy having sex for the sole purpose of making fun of him on the basis that it's gay sex and therefore something to be ridiculed.

 

[Telstra]

I thought you guys are more forgiving than that but obviously not.

I'm sure Ravi and Molly felt really sorry and very remorseful, so this remorselessness doesn't count.

 

[blackbeltninja]

I'm pretty sure Ravi is not a kid, he's 18. neither was Tyler.

Ravi ruined and destroyed Tyler's life. Now karma is coming back to bite him.

Come on, you remember when you were 18. When you look back now at things you thought you knew back then and things you did back then, you realise now how young you actually were and how little experience you had relatively.

For the most part college Freshmen are hardly sage, wise and worldly. Hell, I remember being in my 2nd year of university and thinking how inept and green the new Freshmen were, and I was literally only a year ahead of them (and in some cases, the same age). I think that's worth remembering.

I'm not saying it makes it right, of course.

-d-

 

[fetaby]

I thought you guys are more forgiving than that but obviously not.

I'm sure Ravi and Molly felt really sorry and very remorseful, so this remorselessness doesn't count.

You know, for someone who rails on religion so much, this post smacks of it. Where was their remorsefulness when they were watching him?

How many gay kids have to die before we stop forgiving the situations that make life unbearable?

 

[SuperDave]

I still don't believe Molly had anything to do with it..

 

[Telstra]

You know, for someone who rails on religion so much, this post smacks of it. Where was their remorsefulness when they were watching him?

How many gay kids have to die before we stop forgiving the situations that make life unbearable?

You mean only religion can forgive ?

I'm all for punishment but punishment should fit the crime.
Maybe his punishment should be financial, home detection, community service ... etc.


What good in locking Ravi in jail ? nothing. will he re-offend ? no
I've heard each prisoner cost the government $90,000 per year correct?
Does the public want to pay that much?

 

[Telstra]

Buddy, we Americans are probably the people most likely to say,"I'm sorry" than any other country. (A lot of foreigners poke fun at us for this tendency.)

But sometimes,"I'm sorry" just isn't enough.

An analogy: if you just walk into a home, mass murder a family of seven, and say,"I'm sorry....well, it just isn't enough—the damage has already been done.

Nope, not because they are asians.

Why don't you compare with Hitler or Pol pot instead.