Tyler Clementi's tormentor going to trial

[Críostóir]

Guys in case you've forgotten the guy does deserve a fair trial. So saying you want him in prison forever without knowing the facts is just plain ignorant.

I'm not defending him in any way but everyone has the right to defend themselves as they see fit.

Americans only feel that way when they're on the defense's side, otherwise it's ill wishes and blood-thirsty dreams.

In general, maybe, Karen. But I think people here a) know more than the jury will hear about what happened and b) are saying these things subject to the assumption that he did what we think he did. We're just not saying "Assuming he really did all that..." every time.

That's what I'm doing, anyway. Do others agree?

 

[pat grimshaw]

Nothing like a nice dose of bigotry ….

No, it's the truth. If you visit Australia you will see the Irish/indigenous are the highest proportion of those in prison and dependent on alcohol and taxpayer-paid welfare and needing medical attention and with the shortest life span. It's the facts.

If anything, I should retract the first sentence of my first post because I only know second-hand facts in the Clementi case.

 

[Telstra]

I hope he gets 10 years. Lying sack of shit.

His fucking defense is saying the videos were never put online! They WERE. I know people who saw them!

Filth and scum. I hope he never gets out of prison.

Such hate in you. [STRIKE]I hope you are an angel and couldn't hurt a fly.[/STRIKE]
Staying hateful for the rest of your life?

 

[Críostóir]

No, it's the truth. If you visit Australia you will see the Irish/indigenous are the highest proportion of those in prison and dependent on alcohol and taxpayer-paid welfare and needing medical attention and with the shortest life span. It's the facts.

Well, when a whole class have those kinds of issues, one of two things explains it: it's intrinsic to them, or their social position does it to them.

If it's their social position, then they're the victims of the problem (though they may also be the perpetrators of crimes). Blaming them for their own oppression is a typically right-wing reality twist.

And if you think it's intrinsic to them, that's just racist. I'll note that Irish-descended people don't have such a position in other parts of the post-Famine diaspora; as far as I know no country other than Australia has a significant population of Australian indigenous, so no comparisons are available there; but from what I do know about the history of that population in Australia suggests that the white and largely criminal-descended population beat them down so hard, for so long, and so recently, that to expect them to be fully integrated into Australian society in a single generation, even if that's what they wanted, is unreasonable in the extreme.

I'm always astonished by the NSDAP-like mind twist that allows someone to consider a short life expectancy a moral failing.

 

[Críostóir]

Such hate in you. [STRIKE]I hope you are an angel and couldn't hurt a fly.[/STRIKE]
Staying hateful for the rest of your life?

You obviously haven't been paying much attention to me. That's fine; you're not required to, and after all I don't pay much to you, either.

But you're making a fool of yourself right now. OTOH this has never stopped you before, so I don't know why I'm bothering.

 

[Telstra]

You obviously haven't been paying much attention to me. That's fine; you're not required to, and after all I don't pay much to you, either.

But you're making a fool of yourself right now. OTOH this has never stopped you before, so I don't know why I'm bothering.

ok, maybe you are right.
What is OTOH ?

 

[Críostóir]

On The Other Hand

 

[bankside]

My concern is the defence being raised that the the accused's actions 'played an insignificant role in the despair that caused Clementi to kill himself.'

They'll basically be arguing that, likely, as a closeted gay man, Clementi was depressed, distressed and in pain anyway and in all likelihood had planned to kill himself, regardless.

I could not possibly imagine the pain and distress his family and friends would be put through, if they are called to testify and be questioned on this point.

Terrible. Just terrible.

I wish I could remember the name of a legal principle I once studied, which is that you can't pick your victim; you have to take them as is.

If you punch someone in the head and their neck snaps, you can't claim that the person was unusually weak and that an "average victim" would have had a more robust neck therefore the charges should be reduced. It doesn't work that way.

I wish I could remember the name of the principle and also whether it is unique to Canada or whether it is generally accepted.

Anyway the point is, it would be a very poor defence to say "Oh he only died because of his pre-existing weakness, so I should be let off the hook."

 

[pat grimshaw]

Oh Crío, you adding in lots of your own assumptions to what I was talking about

 

[Críostóir]

I wish I could remember the name of a legal principle I once studied, which is that you can't pick your victim; you have to take them as is.

If you punch someone in the head and their neck snaps, you can't claim that the person was unusually weak and that an "average victim" would have had a more robust neck therefore the charges should be reduced. It doesn't work that way.

I wish I could remember the name of the principle and also whether it is unique to Canada or whether it is generally accepted.

Anyway the point is, it would be a very poor defence to say "Oh he only died because of his pre-existing weakness, so I should be let off the hook."

I believe it's a universally accepted legal principle. Sometimes called the "eggshell skull" rule.

 

[Sam Blum]

if the prosecution is alleging that Ravi's recording pushed Clementi off a bridge, it seems fair to question what else could have been going on in his life that may have had more of an impact (eg: the fact that his boyfriend just broke up with him)... it could also be useful to question his own feelings on having his hookup recorded and whether or not he and Clementi talked about it.

Okay, it may be relevant to ask the second man of his actions in Clementi's life. This can be done with closed circuit TV and silhouetted image, as is often done when a person's potential frailty or vulnerability outweigh the need for those other than the judge to know his actual name and personal details. Ravi being given this information is cruel and bizarre.

The opinions and feelings of the partner are irrelevant, I should imagine. I'm sure that there's an American practicing lawyer here somewhere who could clarify, but I know in Australia or Britain, nobody in a court cares about pure opinion unless it is that of an expert witness who must decide on the validity or meaning of evidence. Regardless, this still doesn't require the release of the man's identity!

 

[Sam Blum]

Well, when a whole class have those kinds of issues, one of two things explains it: it's intrinsic to them, or their social position does it to them.

If it's their social position, then they're the victims of the problem (though they may also be the perpetrators of crimes). Blaming them for their own oppression is a typically right-wing reality twist.

And if you think it's intrinsic to them, that's just racist. I'll note that Irish-descended people don't have such a position in other parts of the post-Famine diaspora; as far as I know no country other than Australia has a significant population of Australian indigenous, so no comparisons are available there; but from what I do know about the history of that population in Australia suggests that the white and largely criminal-descended population beat them down so hard, for so long, and so recently, that to expect them to be fully integrated into Australian society in a single generation, even if that's what they wanted, is unreasonable in the extreme.

I'm always astonished by the NSDAP-like mind twist that allows someone to consider a short life expectancy a moral failing.

Well, to be fair, it's not only the imported convicts and their descendants who brought sickness and social poverty to the indigenous peoples of Australia. The churches (except the Lutherans, who are actually respected by many Aboriginal peoples for having been very helpful) and soldiers and ruling elite all played significant roles in making aboriginal peoples un-welcome and criminalised in their own lands.

What many non-Aboriginal people fail to notice is the whiting out of anything other than Eurasian culture in Australia. It doesn't cross their minds to analyse overtly and without prejudice the media coverage of daily life, the TV programming, the laws, the social systems, the prejudices at criminal trials, the differing immune systems even, and a litany of other difficulties facing indigenous folk here.

And frankly, a big part of the ongoing problem is that many of the Aboriginal folk who have completed higher education and who are articulate are simply too polite to say what needs to be said and/or are ignored by bigoted media when they say it. There are many smaller details of racism that operate to facilitate the muting of the voices that we need to hear, but that is another thread.

Sorry for the hijack.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^
Still off-topic

…many of the Aboriginal folk who have completed higher education and who are articulate are simply too polite to say what needs to be said…

I think Rosalie Kunoth-Monks is wonderfully articulate in this film clip (unlike Beth Price or that Larissa Behrendt)
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/841447

 

[Kulindahr]

Guys in case you've forgotten the guy does deserve a fair trial. So saying you want him in prison forever without knowing the facts is just plain ignorant.

I'm not defending him in any way but everyone has the right to defend themselves as they see fit.

We know more than a few of the facts. It will be interesting to learn more.

My concern is the defence being raised that the the accused's actions 'played an insignificant role in the despair that caused Clementi to kill himself.'

They'll basically be arguing that, likely, as a closeted gay man, Clementi was depressed, distressed and in pain anyway and in all likelihood had planned to kill himself, regardless.

I could not possibly imagine the pain and distress his family and friends would be put through, if they are called to testify and be questioned on this point.

Terrible. Just terrible.

Sometimes justice has terrible side effects. That just makes the crimes all the more horrible.

I wish I could remember the name of a legal principle I once studied, which is that you can't pick your victim; you have to take them as is.

If you punch someone in the head and their neck snaps, you can't claim that the person was unusually weak and that an "average victim" would have had a more robust neck therefore the charges should be reduced. It doesn't work that way.

I wish I could remember the name of the principle and also whether it is unique to Canada or whether it is generally accepted.

Anyway the point is, it would be a very poor defence to say "Oh he only died because of his pre-existing weakness, so I should be let off the hook."

I believe it's a universally accepted legal principle. Sometimes called the "eggshell skull" rule.

Yes, it's pretty universal, being found in both English common law and Roman law. Hilariously, I saw it applied in a case where someone died from a contaminant in a street drug -- the defense actually tried to argue that the death wasn't the dealer's fault, because the victim was already sick.



Give the guy ten years. And if at that point he can't come on JUB as manage an apology acceptable to a 2/3 majority, which is judged by a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and a gay-friendly pastor to be sincere, throw him back for another ten.

 

[Yves]

Tyler Clementi's family believes ex-roommate does not deserve harsh punishment. The family issued a statement yesterday:

Clementi’s Parents: Penalty Need Not Be Harsh
by Geoff Mulvihill
Associated Press
Tuesday Oct 25, 2011

(...)

"Tyler is not on trial in this case," they said in the statement. "Despite some media narratives to the contrary, the criminal case is not about whether the roommate’s acts caused Tyler to commit suicide. The criminal case is about the roommate’s conduct."

They also added: "Legal accountability does not necessarily require the imposition of a harsh penalty in this case."

(...)

The parents did not comment on another ruling Berman made last week that required prosecutors to tell Ravi and his lawyer the name of the other man in the encounter. The Middlesex County Prosecutor’s Office is expected to appeal that ruling this week.

Source:
http://www.edgeboston.com/news/national///126094/clementi’s_parents:_penalty_need_not_be_harsh

 

[Críostóir]

Telstra, you're the one who told us that "we should just forgive him". (Ravi)

That's unspeakable, Telstra.

But then, Tyler Clementi was not your brother, your son, your nephew.

BTW, if "we should just forgive him", you might as well just empty out the prisons.

If you look at Telstra's threads, the unspeakable is pretty much what he does. Don't pay him too much attention; you'll never change his mind about anything, and you'll be annoyed.