U.S. rolls back protections for transgender prison inmates

[luckynumbah7]

Besides, if it's the dick you're worried about that doesn't tend to get erect on hrt and you can't juggle your meds in prison.

Though you don't need one to rape.

http://www.jurist.org/dateline/2014/09/christina-piecora-female-inmates.php

Rape in women's prisons are three times that of the men's.

And since you don't need one, I can't think why people are failing to side-eye possible female inmates with large grudges and violent personal pasts.

 

[SeaCore]

Thanks for the reply!

And you've forgotten about the opposite; I'm certain there's quite a few women of a violent persuasion serving what amounts to life who would claim male just to get access to some of those men. Mind you, I didn't say they were mentally well-balanced and I've doubts on any of the inmates involved getting out alive. Let alone with their genitalia attached.

Although that's not correct. I didn't mention it but that doesn't mean I forgot about it.

That aside, I'd definitely like to see the prison rape issue addressed. It's abhorrent that it's so permissible. It's a rape culture.

A bit of a nit-pick, but you don't have to want HRT to be trans right? So even if the dick were my issue claiming to be trans wouldn't necessarily mean HRT.

 

[peeonme]

And the inverse is also true. Someone declaring as transgender cannot be accommodated in some way that will lessen his/her punishment compared to non-transgendered inmates. The punishment of imprisonment is intended to be fair in its impacts for both.

That is really what is at stake here. Listening to other inmates on the topic and whether it is being abused would probably give the most insight. I'd look for videos narrated by ex-cons.

Not to go off topic, but, I believe that we as a nation need to take a good hard look at what we call 'correctional' facilities. Prisons in many cases are revolving door places. Now they are an industry as well, very little correcting goes on. Earlier today this thread compelled me to do some on line reading about conditions in the prisons in the US compared to other nations as well as the recidivism rates and the percent of the prison population compared to the national population along ethnic lines.

The issue of transgender is complex, but the system as a whole is not working. If a person was not violent upon going in to prison it's nearly a certainty that they will be when they leave. Many nights when I go to bed I think of those who are locked up, what a sad situation.

 

[luckynumbah7]

-I think gender should only be segregated in prison due to unique psychological circumstance and, depending on how therapy goes, shuffled back into the 'general system'. One of many reasons I included therapy. For individual cells, have opt-in (and opt-in only) cell sharing if the inmates aren't on a hazard list.

One of the issues about prison is, I think, that after you're there, there's nowhere else to fall. I'm pretty sure it can be rebuilt so there's considerably farther to fall should inmates get 'worse'. Part of doing that would be to treat inmates humanely in the first place. People give greater value to 'a little' when there's something on the horizon and repercussions over their shoulder to contrast it against; and inhumane treatment does not paint a horizon, nor does it encourage the value of 'a little', since the little of value is not guaranteed.

 

[peeonme]

-I think gender should only be segregated in prison due to unique psychological circumstance and, depending on how therapy goes, shuffled back into the 'general system'. One of many reasons I included therapy. For individual cells, have opt-in (and opt-in only) cell sharing if the inmates aren't on a hazard list.

One of the issues about prison is, I think, that after you're there, there's nowhere else to fall. I'm pretty sure it can be rebuilt so there's considerably farther to fall should inmates get 'worse'. Part of doing that would be to treat inmates humanely in the first place. People give greater value to 'a little' when there's something on the horizon and repercussions over their shoulder to contrast it against; and inhumane treatment does not paint a horizon.

What is horrible is that once a person has paid their debt, it follows them. I understand the sex offenders registry although in certain circumstances a person should not be on it as in a 19 yr. old with a 16 yr. old type situation. But when a person can't put their crime behind them and get a decent job they are much more prone to use what they learned from experienced criminals while on the inside.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Thanks for the reply!

Although that's not correct. I didn't mention it but that doesn't mean I forgot about it.

That aside, I'd definitely like to see the prison rape issue addressed. It's abhorrent that it's so permissible. It's a rape culture.

A bit of a nit-pick, but you don't have to want HRT to be trans right? So even if the dick were my issue claiming to be trans wouldn't necessarily mean HRT.

Nope, hrt isn't necessary. However, I've been using two models. A single cell or a cell with another trans inmate in the same situation - they'd still be housed according to gender. For the record, I don't agree with housing based on genitalia. I was referring to the system as it currently stands, which is why I threw in hrt, and another system with some major tweaks in it. One of the major tweaks was cell sharing not based on genitalia but instead by the crime committed combined with the context and the known violence of each inmate. Which was also why I suggested better visual monitoring and recording of both inmates and officers, since the officers are far from innocent in sexual assault matters.

 

[TickTockMan]

-I think gender should only be segregated in prison due to unique psychological circumstance and, depending on how therapy goes, shuffled back into the 'general system'. One of many reasons I included therapy. For individual cells, have opt-in (and opt-in only) cell sharing if the inmates aren't on a hazard list.

One of the issues about prison is, I think, that after you're there, there's nowhere else to fall. I'm pretty sure it can be rebuilt so there's considerably farther to fall should inmates get 'worse'. Part of doing that would be to treat inmates humanely in the first place. People give greater value to 'a little' when there's something on the horizon and repercussions over their shoulder to contrast it against; and inhumane treatment does not paint a horizon, nor does it encourage the value of 'a little', since the little of value is not guaranteed.

I agree with you 100% but the problem with that is prison is now a business. Many D's and R's are okay with people making money off sending other to prison. As long as it is for profit you can count out humane.

 

[peeonme]

Some food for thought;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/why-sweden-closing-prisons

The head of Sweden's prison and probation service, Nils Oberg, announced in November that four Swedish prisons are to be closed due to an "out of the ordinary" decline in prisoner numbers.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Thanks for the reply!

Although that's not correct. I didn't mention it but that doesn't mean I forgot about it.

That aside, I'd definitely like to see the prison rape issue addressed. It's abhorrent that it's so permissible. It's a rape culture.

A bit of a nit-pick, but you don't have to want HRT to be trans right? So even if the dick were my issue claiming to be trans wouldn't necessarily mean HRT.

I'll admit to being surprised you'd thought of it. I've never, ever seen it come up in these types of conversations, though I believe I've read about trans men and inmate procedure once or twice before. I've been under the impression (an example being the article) that an individual's dick is the issue for everyone else, as that's the only bit that seems to be the focus.

What do you think of gendered segregation for inmates?

(personally, I think the question "What do we do about inmate X because inmate X could do the same thing many of the 'safe' inmates are currently doing, albeit with different equipment' is the wrong question to be asking. The question to be asking is "Why the fuck are we allowing that behavior in the first place.")

 

[SeaCore]

What do you think of gendered segregation for inmates?

The more that I think about it, the less the gendered segregation makes sense. I don't really understand what problem it's supposed to solve. What are we trying to do by segregating? I think we've just been so used to doing it that the reason has been left utterly unexamined.
That's not just prisons, just in general.

 

[LilBit]

Some food for thought;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/why-sweden-closing-prisons

Unfortunately, we're not going to see anything like this in the US as long as we have for-profit prisons with minimum capacity requirements in their contracts. There's no economic interest for the corrections corporations in rehabilitation, but recidivism is great for the stockholders.

Regarding the gender segregation of prisoners, this documentary gives a glimpse at what some transwomen have experienced during their time in men's prisons:

 

[NotHardUp1]

Not to go off topic, but, I believe that we as a nation need to take a good hard look at what we call 'correctional' facilities. Prisons in many cases are revolving door places. Now they are an industry as well, very little correcting goes on. Earlier today this thread compelled me to do some on line reading about conditions in the prisons in the US compared to other nations as well as the recidivism rates and the percent of the prison population compared to the national population along ethnic lines.

The issue of transgender is complex, but the system as a whole is not working. If a person was not violent upon going in to prison it's nearly a certainty that they will be when they leave. Many nights when I go to bed I think of those who are locked up, what a sad situation.

And what of the "sad situation" of the convenience store clerk who was held up at gunpoint? Of the guy who got knifed or shot in a fight? Of the family of some woman who was killed when her car was stolen? What recompense is due them?

"Correctional" is a word, not necessarily accurate. The correction may be that they are removed from society for a time. It's not Rehabilitation Facility, because time after time, it's proven to not rehabilitate. High schools are called Educational Institutions, yet a plethora of junior colleges now tries to remediate what high schools are not doing. There is some minor problem apparently with teachers passing students who aren't reading or working, parents who aren't getting kids to school, and administrations that settle for crowd control over education.

-I think gender should only be segregated in prison due to unique psychological circumstance and, depending on how therapy goes, shuffled back into the 'general system'. One of many reasons I included therapy. For individual cells, have opt-in (and opt-in only) cell sharing if the inmates aren't on a hazard list.

One of the issues about prison is, I think, that after you're there, there's nowhere else to fall. I'm pretty sure it can be rebuilt so there's considerably farther to fall should inmates get 'worse'. Part of doing that would be to treat inmates humanely in the first place. People give greater value to 'a little' when there's something on the horizon and repercussions over their shoulder to contrast it against; and inhumane treatment does not paint a horizon, nor does it encourage the value of 'a little', since the little of value is not guaranteed.

Ultimately, prison is punishment, so who in the world is ever going to define punishment as humane? Who? We can't even agree how to discipline children as a culture, so how are we ever going to define appropriate criminal justice?

What is horrible is that once a person has paid their debt, it follows them. I understand the sex offenders registry although in certain circumstances a person should not be on it as in a 19 yr. old with a 16 yr. old type situation. But when a person can't put their crime behind them and get a decent job they are much more prone to use what they learned from experienced criminals while on the inside.

Unfortunately, stigma has always been part of the punishment for criminals. It's part of the deterrent. There isn't any calculus where a guy should be able to add up the numbers, decide robbing a bank will be worth 10 years of his life, and proceed to rob. Becoming a bank robber should be an enduring stigma. Embezzling your charity's funds should be a stigma. Manslaughter when driving intoxicated should be a stigma. Killing your neighbors dog in a feud should be a stigma.

It isn't the same as saying people will have no chance when they are freed. People can and do hire ex-convicts, and a probationary stance is a fair request. Maybe they won't ever have a high paying job, but that may be a consequence of choosing crime.

If they start over in a new place, they may have to prove themselves in employment, but it's not like their social circle would know of their convictions. And let's be clear. It's not serving time in prison that is the stigma. It's the conviction of the criminal offense. Serving time in prison just makes them scarier due to the hardening process of living with other criminals. They'd prefer to just be mixed in with the chumps in society rather than the dog-eat-dog world of prison.

Finally, getting a decent job implies there is some precedence for a prisoner having a decent job previously. Many of the habitual criminals have never had one, and rejected any sort of working your way up by working hard like many have to in order to get anywhere. Many of the prisoners have had contempt for the chumps scraping by on low wage work, hence their turn to crime. Assuming that they will be leaving prison with a shiny new attitude is a bit generous.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Because punishment doesn't mean treating someone inhumane?

As for not being a rehabilitation facility, it's not one because it fails to be one. I mean, what other reason does Prison exist if to not serve time for a crime and try to rehabilitate them for society? If it isn't that, then why release anyone at all?

People commit crimes and they deserve to serve the time that is appropriate, but pretending like getting a job or getting back into society (depending on how long they were in prison) is a walk in a park by just walking into a place handing in job applications wreaks of out of touch with reality. Yes, losing 10 years of their life is their own fault but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to sustain themselves when they served the time for the crimes they committed. Programs that exist for this can only do so much for them as well.

I'm not saying we should hold their hands like innocent children but the fact of the matter is, even when a criminal goes to prison and serves their time, society in general still see's them as a criminal no matter what. And yes, just because they went to Prison doesn't mean they're a better person now, but that stigma doesn't help them becoming a better person either.

 

[peeonme]

And what of the "sad situation" of the convenience store clerk who was held up at gunpoint? Of the guy who got knifed or shot in a fight? Of the family of some woman who was killed when her car was stolen? What recompense is due them?

"Correctional" is a word, not necessarily accurate. The correction may be that they are removed from society for a time. It's not Rehabilitation Facility, because time after time, it's proven to not rehabilitate. High schools are called Educational Institutions, yet a plethora of junior colleges now tries to remediate what high schools are not doing. There is some minor problem apparently with teachers passing students who aren't reading or working, parents who aren't getting kids to school, and administrations that settle for crowd control over education..

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp
About 46% are incarcerated for crimes related to drugs, which of course can lead to violence.

a Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement 475 0.3%
b Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses 8,113 4.7%
c Continuing Criminal Enterprise 376 0.2%
d Courts or Corrections 788 0.5%
e Drug Offenses 79,190 46.2%
f Extortion, Fraud, Bribery 10,961 6.4%
g Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses 5,559 3.2%
h Immigration 12,115 7.1%
i Miscellaneous 1,275 0.7%
j National Security 66 0.0%
k Robbery 6,320 3.7%
l Sex Offenses 16,154 9.4%

However, drug crimes is an umbrella that many fit under. Possession and use are a sickness imo, compared to possession with intent to sell.
I don't go with legalizing drugs to eliminate the crime, but I do think that drug use is a symptom... it might indicate a childhood of abuse or a person who is trans gender or gay that can't deal with it. Not to mention those who are hooked on opioids after a medical procedure and then turn to street drugs when they can't get a prescription any longer.

And we need to look at the fact that many of the prisons are ran privately and are a for profit enterprise.

- - - Updated - - -

Unfortunately, we're not going to see anything like this in the US as long as we have for-profit prisons with minimum capacity requirements in their contracts. There's no economic interest for the corrections corporations in rehabilitation, but recidivism is great for the stockholders.

Regarding the gender segregation of prisoners, this documentary gives a glimpse at what some transwomen have experienced during their time in men's prisons:

I agree 100%

 

[NotHardUp1]

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp
About 46% are incarcerated for crimes related to drugs, which of course can lead to violence.

a Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement 475 0.3%
b Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses 8,113 4.7%
c Continuing Criminal Enterprise 376 0.2%
d Courts or Corrections 788 0.5%
e Drug Offenses 79,190 46.2%
f Extortion, Fraud, Bribery 10,961 6.4%
g Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses 5,559 3.2%
h Immigration 12,115 7.1%
i Miscellaneous 1,275 0.7%
j National Security 66 0.0%
k Robbery 6,320 3.7%
l Sex Offenses 16,154 9.4%

However, drug crimes is an umbrella that many fit under. Possession and use are a sickness imo, compared to possession with intent to sell.
I don't go with legalizing drugs to eliminate the crime, but I do think that drug use is a symptom... it might indicate a childhood of abuse or a person who is trans gender or gay that can't deal with it. Not to mention those who are hooked on opioids after a medical procedure and then turn to street drugs when they can't get a prescription any longer.

And we need to look at the fact that many of the prisons are ran privately and are a for profit enterprise.

I agree on the decriminalization of marijuana, but not stronger drugs. According to this site (http://www.drugwarfacts.org/chapter/marijuana) 43% of US drug arrests were for marijuana related crime, usually possession.

That would indeed go a long way to reducing prison numbers, and would be a welcome change in US law.

However, there is a presumption that all drug convictions are minor affairs. I don't think that holds up. The remaining drugs are not exactly people stashing back a bottle of absinthe. The rest of the drugs are pretty serious, whether opiates or other stout drugs. That means over 40,000 of the 79,000 are serious drug violations. That's not a small matter. If you add that number to the violent crimes, and certainly many of them are intertwined, the incarceration of over 60% of the inmates would be for violent crimes. I'm not assuming immigration is a violent crime. Extortion is usually under threat of violence, so it is included for my purposes.

Although I agree that inmate populations are too high, the reference to private prisons is a red herring, even if unintentional. The actual incidence of prisoners incarcerated in the US in privately run prisons is only 8.4%. Whereas I'm against the trend, I will say that the government itself isn't known for stellar bureaucratic efficiency, so I don't agree that it is better at running prisons, only that it has the onus to do so. For activists, it is common to cite anything but the actual incidence at 8.4%. They cite a higher percentage in federal prisons without citing how much of the total prison population that is. They also tend to cite the number of prisons instead of putting it in context.

As for presumption that drug use connotes broken childhoods, that really doesn't hold up. The path to drug abuse is recreational, just like alcohol. It became fashionable to lump drug use and alcoholism under the umbrella of "self-medicating," but that isn't some general amnesty, nor is it descriptive of the majority of users. Simply being around the users quickly disabuses that impression. They start off as bored, disaffected youth who throw caution to the wind and then are stunned two years later, or 20 years later, to find that the habit of turnign to a high leads to behavioral patterns that ruin their lives.

Whereas it is true that marijuana is not a gateway drug, it is true that people who view drugs as a ticket for entertainment wind up escalating. It's fun to pop a pill; then it's not fun.

Whereas the may be pain in being gay or transgender, those numbers are tiny compared to the number of drug users, so supposing that most or many are gay or trans is off. Transgenderism is not more than 1% and gay still estimated at under 5%.

In totality, there isn't a good reason to have more care for the criminals than the victims of the crimes.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

When the state claims responsibility for inmates that includes general health. Health is affected negatively when prisoners aren't housed correctly. That's regardless of [STRIKE]whether[/STRIKE] even if the crime committed was actually done.

Corrected to add just an extra dash of humanity.

 

[peeonme]

In totality, there isn't a good reason to have more care for the criminals than the victims of the crimes.

I am not in favor of more care, just 'care'. What is wrong is that the white middle aged woman in the 'burbs needs rehab because of her sickness (alcoholism and drug dependency are a disease) and the black woman in Detroit with the same problem goes to jail.
The white woman doctor shops and gets a prescription, her insurance pays for it.
The black uninsured woman goes to a drug dealer and gets busted.

To say that people start on drugs for recreational reasons is ambiguous. Why does one feel the need to escape? That is what recreational use is,

https://study.com/academy/lesson/soma-in-brave-new-world-examples-analysis.html
Even in the seemingly perfect society of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, people still have bad days. Maybe a lower caste person fails to show the proper respect, or someone lusts after another only to be rejected. In those cases where life deals someone a little bit of unhappiness, citizens of the World State know that they can always turn to soma, the drug of choice in Brave New World.

We live in a world today where people are trained to believe from childhood that life should go "their way", there should be equality for all at all times and life should never be "unfair". All of that is bullshit and when the rubber meets the road some can't handle it and look for something to ease the pain of reality.

Prisons should be for violent, dangerous men and women.