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UK General Election

unloadonme

Resurgam
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The BBC is reporting that Prime Minister Gordon Brown is to have an audience of Her Majesty The Queen today to seek a dissolution of parliament with a view to a general election on 6 May. The Queen will, of course, as a constitutional monarch, agree.

The opinion polls are putting the Conservative Party led by David Cameron ahead of Brown's Labour Party by between 4% and 10%.

It's going to be a long month!
 
He did. It's been going down for some time. The commentators are suggesting there's something like a 75% chance of the Conservatives winning on the day.
 
whoever they pick they are screwed.

there is so much out of their control at this point they will face the same fate as every ruling party.
 
Will you ever boot the Royal family? What a waste those people are.
 
Will you ever boot the Royal family? What a waste those people are.

The cost of the royal family is about £0.60 per person per annum. I'd call that pretty good value.

And you have to consider the alternative. If we replaced an hereditary constitutional monarchy with an elected head of state, would we any better off? We'd end up with some superannuated politician such as that dreadful, smarmy-voiced prat Tony Blair. I won't be voting for that.
 
The cost of the royal family is about £0.60 per person per annum. I'd call that pretty good value.

And you have to consider the alternative. If we replaced an hereditary constitutional monarchy with an elected head of state, would we any better off? We'd end up with some superannuated politician such as that dreadful, smarmy-voiced prat Tony Blair. I won't be voting for that.

It would be a lot cheaper. The UK spends close to £36 million on those dopes. I wouldn't call spending any money on them money well spent.
 
The Liberal Democrats are surging ahead in the polls after the first debate! (!)

Another party that I'm warming to, given the insanity of the last two years, is the Scottish Socialist Party. :eek:

I would have no qualms about voting LibDem permanently, were it not for one thing - Europe. I couldn't disagree with them more on their somewhat naive and foolish pro-European stance. On that single issue, I'm more in line with UKIP. I'll probably switch my vote to them one day. Unless we withdraw from the EU, there's not going to be much of a country left in a few decades. I don't understand why most people can't see what direction Brussels is leading us to - a monolithic European superstate. :mad:

I may be economically and socially liberal, but I'm constitutionally conservative.
 
The Liberal Democrats are surging ahead in the polls after the first debate! (!)

Another party that I'm warming to, given the insanity of the last two years, is the Scottish Socialist Party. :eek:

I would have no qualms about voting LibDem permanently, were it not for one thing - Europe. I couldn't disagree with them more on their somewhat naive and foolish pro-European stance. On that single issue, I'm more in line with UKIP. I'll probably switch my vote to them one day. Unless we withdraw from the EU, there's not going to be much of a country left in a few decades. I don't understand why most people can't see what direction Brussels is leading us to - a monolithic European superstate. :mad:

I may be economically and socially liberal, but I'm constitutionally conservative.

Oh, the Brits and their Euro phobia... so amusing. British tabloids and newspapers take the same fair & balanced approach to covering EU news and analysis as Glen Beck and Fox News take in covering anything that Obama does.
Brussels is leading is to an Orwellian monolithic superstate where you won't have any freedoms and will have to eat Brie everyday and drink German beer... and Obama is leading us to a communist state where ACORN will establish massive re-education camps for Republicans. Revolt, revolt!!!
 
Oh, the Brits and their Euro phobia... so amusing. British tabloids and newspapers take the same fair & balanced approach to covering EU news and analysis as Glen Beck and Fox News take in covering anything that Obama does.
Brussels is leading is to an Orwellian monolithic superstate where you won't have any freedoms and will have to eat Brie everyday and drink German beer... and Obama is leading us to a communist state where ACORN will establish massive re-education camps for Republicans. Revolt, revolt!!!

For all our sins we Greeks are now realising that the British are wise to be Euro sceptical.

I doubt whether the British fear Europe. For British armies have had to intervene in European wars, several times over the centuries.

Euro scepticism is a healthy trait that enables the British to be the master of their own affairs.

We Greeks now understand that we need to be much more sceptical of our European friends.
 
For all our sins we Greeks are now realising that the British are wise to be Euro sceptical.

I doubt whether the British fear Europe. For British armies have had to intervene in European wars, several times over the centuries.

Euro scepticism is a healthy trait that enables the British to be the master of their own affairs.

We Greeks now understand that we need to be much more sceptical of our European friends.

Excuse me!!???

Greece has only itself to blame for the mess it is in. The Greek government committed fraud in relation to the EU in order to enter the monetary union (euro), by presenting invented and fraudulent numbers for its budget and debt in order to qualify. If anything, it is the EU and its member states that should be highly skeptical of Greece.

This fraud is why other member states of the EU have been very reluctant to provide aid to Greece -- but in the end Greece is going to get financial aid from EU countries and the IMF. And Greece should be appropriately thankful.
If someone presents fraudulent accounts to qualify for membership in an organization or false transcripts to get into an university, for example -- what usually happens to them? They get expelled! Which is what should have happened with Greece.

Greek deficits and debt have been mounting because fiscal fraud is a national sport in Greece. Greece hid the real numbers as long as it could and when the truth finally came out there was no apology, no sense of shame. The Greek government practically demanded money from Germany to cover its debt payments, and when this was not immediately forthcoming the Greek press and public took to calling Germans Nazis and calling for a boycott of German products.

That didn't go down too well as you can imagine. In fact, throughout Europe Greece's reputation is in the toilet, and I know a few people that have decided to cancel summer vacations in Greece. It is only in the alternate reality that is Greece, where no one with an income over 1 million euros has ever paid taxes, that apparently the EU is to blame.

Greek problems have nothing to do with the EU. They have to do with Greek fiscal irresponsibility. If Greece didn't have the Euro speculators would have torn the drachma to shreds by now.
 
Excuse me!!???

Greece has only itself to blame for the mess it is in. The Greek government committed fraud in relation to the EU in order to enter the monetary union (euro), by presenting invented and fraudulent numbers for its budget and debt in order to qualify. If anything, it is the EU and its member states that should be highly skeptical of Greece.

Assuming that your contention is correct, why would the other EU member states conspire in such a fraud? If the other EU states knowingly conspired with Greece to break the rules, then Greece is not alone in acting in a fraudulent manner.

This fraud is why other member states of the EU have been very reluctant to provide aid to Greece -- but in the end Greece is going to get financial aid from EU countries and the IMF. And Greece should be appropriately thankful.

The only reason that Greece is being offered assistance is as a result of owing some 300 Billion Euros to a variety of banks. The French banks are owed some 60 billion, and the German banks some 40 Billion. Either Greece receives the necessary assistance to stop the speculators ruining Greece, or Greece has no recourse but to go bankrupt.

The EU is now well aware that there is no mechanism in place that is able to address the economic problems of member states. This is now changing in order to ensure that Greece is not followed by Portugal, and S
pain.



If someone presents fraudulent accounts to qualify for membership in an organization or false transcripts to get into an university, for example -- what usually happens to them? They get expelled! Which is what should have happened with Greece.

You will recall that the Greek debt crisis is not a fresh issue. Rather the Germans, and the French have been pouring petrol on the fire by continuing to sell Greece, German military hardware, tanks, trucks, warships, submarines etc. Further more than fifty percent of the cars sold in Greece are manufactured in Germany, or by German owned car manufacturers, such as Seat, or Skoda.


Greek deficits and debt have been mounting because fiscal fraud is a national sport in Greece. Greece hid the real numbers as long as it could and when the truth finally came out there was no apology, no sense of shame. The Greek government practically demanded money from Germany to cover its debt payments, and when this was not immediately forthcoming the Greek press and public took to calling Germans Nazis and calling for a boycott of German products.

Nothing was hidden. The Greek Government bond issues is evidence that the Germans were well aware of Greek Government fiscal mismanagement. Despite the crisis the German Government, and the French Government have been industrious in attempting to sell Greece more military equipment to protect us from the Turks.

That didn't go down too well as you can imagine. In fact, throughout Europe Greece's reputation is in the toilet, and I know a few people that have decided to cancel summer vacations in Greece. It is only in the alternate reality that is Greece, where no one with an income over 1 million euros has ever paid taxes, that apparently the EU is to blame.

Corruption is not monopolised by the Greeks. The recent Siemens and Daimler Benz corruption scandals does evidence that hypocrisy is a Greek word that resonates in The Fatherland, as it does in Greece.
Did I neglect to mention the corrupt former German chancellor who managed to avoid being prosecuted? Herr Kohl is wise to continue focussing on his cook books. For he cooked a few books during his reign, that were more about money than sauerkraut.


Greek problems have nothing to do with the EU. They have to do with Greek fiscal irresponsibility. If Greece didn't have the Euro speculators would have torn the drachma to shreds by now.

If the German, and French banks want their money back, then the Greek budget crisis has everything to do with the EU.
 
I come from Portugal, which has also had some similar problems as Greece, though on a much smaller scale (debt went 8% over limit, rather than Greek debt which is now over double the limit).
These problems also have the same basic structural origins in Portugal as in Greece: too many people avoid paying taxes, while too many people receive their income from the government either through being unproductive government employees or through corruption related to government expenses, or both.

The vast majority of Portuguese people would not dream of blaming the EU, or French and German banks or companies or whoever else is on your "shift the blame" list. People are aware of the problems of their country and government.

Foreign banks will lend money to governments that ask for it. Foreign military equipment firms will sell their products to countries that want to spend money on it. Foreign auto industry firms will sell cars to any person in any country who wants to buy them. The Greek government borrowed the money when it shouldn't have and spent it on arms when it shouldn't have. And the greek consumers bought luxury BMWs and Mercedes when they should have saved their money.

Same thing in Portugal: people buy tons of BMWs and Mercedes when they cannot afford it. The responsibility lies with the consumers who make unwise purchases, not with the BMW company!

As for your contention that the French and German governments knew that the Greek government was presenting fraudulent numbers -- if they knew that Greece was really in such a terrible situation, approaching bankruptcy, then why didn't they warn the French and German banks that loaning money to Greece was a terrible idea and that the banks might never get the money back???? Doesn't make much sense!

Besides, to have a EU member state near bankruptcy would harm the EU economies, including France and Germany, and might bring problems for the euro currency, as it has -- so, why did the German and French governments do nothing before if they knew that the numbers presented by the Greek government were false??? Again, sorry, but it doesn't make sense!

There is some degree of corruption everywhere, even in countries with relatively little corruption like Germany (Germany is the 14th least corrupt country in the world, according to the Corruption Perceptions Index 2009). But it's still very very different from Greece which is #71 on the list out of a total of 133 countries, even much further down than Portugal at #35.

Greece will get a bailout and things will be better for a while. But the long-term underlying problems cannot be solved by the EU, nor by French or German companies or government. They can only by solved by the Greek government and people. But these problems can only be addressed if people stop excusing their fault by blaming foreign governments and companies. Greek fiscal problems can only be solved long-term by Greece.
 
As for your contention that the French and German governments knew that the Greek government was presenting fraudulent numbers -- if they knew that Greece was really in such a terrible situation, approaching bankruptcy, then why didn't they warn the French and German banks that loaning money to Greece was a terrible idea and that the banks might never get the money back???? Doesn't make much sense!


EU officials, and politicians were well aware that Greece did not meet the necessary conditions, when Greece entered the EU. There were other factors at play. Strategic, and military. That was 1981.

Besides, to have a EU member state near bankruptcy would harm the EU economies, including France and Germany, and might bring problems for the euro currency, as it has -- so, why did the German and French governments do nothing before if they knew that the numbers presented by the Greek government were false??? Again, sorry, but it doesn't make sense!


The EU was very well aware of the Greek budget deficit, but those two pillars of the EU, France and Germany were busy selling Greece lots of manufactured goods. Money is only useful when it is being used.

There is some degree of corruption everywhere, even in countries with relatively little corruption like Germany (Germany is the 14th least corrupt country in the world, according to the Corruption Perceptions Index 2009). But it's still very very different from Greece which is #71 on the list out of a total of 133 countries, even much further down than Portugal at #35.

Relative corruption is not the issue. Corruption is also present in Germany. That is the matter. There are no angels in international business.

Greece will get a bailout and things will be better for a while. But the long-term underlying problems cannot be solved by the EU, nor by French or German companies or government. They can only by solved by the Greek government and people. But these problems can only be addressed if people stop excusing their fault by blaming foreign governments and companies. Greek fiscal problems can only be solved long-term by Greece.

Do not judge the Greek Government, or the Greek people by the attention grabbing Greek popular press. The Greek people are well aware that they must make big sacrifices. I am sure that even uber conservative Austria has a tabloid press where certain liberties are taken and reality takes a back seat.
 
If I lived there, according to that survey, I'd be split between the UKIP, Lib Dems, and BNP.

Of course it doesn't take into account smaller parties, so I don't know where I would stand with that. And since it shows me split evenly -- 33.3,33.3,33.3 -- it wouldn't be much help.


I agree that Brits should be skeptical of Europe for one big reason: the entire set of islands there has a heritage of individual liberty, acknowledging the fact that rights come from the person and are not granted by the state; continental governments see rights as whipped up by the state and granted to the [STRIKE]cattle[/STRIKE] citizens. The former position holds that the state, including the monarchy when you get down to it, belongs to the people; the latter holds that the people belong to the State.

The second position is tyranny, regardless of the window dressing.
 
Do not judge the Greek Government, or the Greek people by the attention grabbing Greek popular press. The Greek people are well aware that they must make big sacrifices. I am sure that even uber conservative Austria has a tabloid press where certain liberties are taken and reality takes a back seat.

The problem is not just the Greek tabloid industry, regular Greek citizens like you also seem to share quite a few delusions and a compulsion to blame others.

It is very instructive to notice that you didn't address any of my arguments.

Again, French and German companies, like companies from any country, will sell their products to anyone who will buy them. Or are you implying that the German government should prohibit BMW from selling cars or Siemens from selling refrigerators to Greek citizens? I am still not very clear on what the French or German governments have to do with this, or for that matter the EU!

How all this crisis have been avoided if Greece were not in the EU?

Every measurement of anything from education to health to corruption through an index is relative -- Sorry!! If you can't see the different between #14 and #71 then... what can I say any further??:wave:
 
If I lived there, according to that survey, I'd be split between the UKIP, Lib Dems, and BNP.

Of course it doesn't take into account smaller parties, so I don't know where I would stand with that. And since it shows me split evenly -- 33.3,33.3,33.3 -- it wouldn't be much help.


I agree that Brits should be skeptical of Europe for one big reason: the entire set of islands there has a heritage of individual liberty, acknowledging the fact that rights come from the person and are not granted by the state; continental governments see rights as whipped up by the state and granted to the [STRIKE]cattle[/STRIKE] citizens. The former position holds that the state, including the monarchy when you get down to it, belongs to the people; the latter holds that the people belong to the State.

The second position is tyranny, regardless of the window dressing.

"Heritage of individual liberty":
Decriminalization of homosexuality in France -- 1791
in Great Britain -- 1967; active arrest policy by police and prosecution of homosexuals reached thousands of victims during 1950-1967 period
 
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