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UK Supreme Court Decision on Gender

The logic of this is hugely contrary. You have no problem with people using whatever restroom. Still, you agree that trans people should be discriminated against because you decided they don't exist and then justify legal discrimination with some example of a rapist in prison with the clear implication that a single rapist impeached every trans person, impying again that rape is inherent to trans identity, which you already said doesn't exist. So if it doesn't exist like you believe, how does that rapist have anything whatsoever to do with anything at all? It looks like that's just there to give cover to the fundamental premise that you have decided who trans people "really" are, and it's fine to discriminate against them based on your disapproval.

That is the definition of bigotry.

So, suppose you are at all consistent in your legal philosophy. In that case, that means that people who don't like you are justified in passing laws discriminating against you, and you find that perfectly acceptable because some gay man somewhere, sometime did something reprehensible. Therefore, you are impeached by that crime and should be punished for it?

This makes no sense, and the only way out is just that you don't like the idea of Trans people and have no problem with their being discriminated against solely for that reason.
Pretty much it.

Every discussion on this topic with a transphobe always ends up with it being entirely predicated on their own personal gut reaction and prejudice.

Meaning that discussion is useless.

I just walk away thinking they sound like bigots and idiots and they think they are right.
 
I knew this thread would be a minefield, but I'm glad that I continued to check on it. I've reconsidered, and even changed, several of my views on this subject due to some of the posts in this thread. Thanks guys.
 
You are willfully fucking ignorant if you think trans men and cis masculine woman weren't deliberately included in the ruling I've complained about.

Are you talking about a different case? The decision I started the thread to discuss was not about trans men and cis masculine women.
... but it also said trans men should be ejected from both groups.

It didn't say anything of the sort.
 
The logic of this is hugely contrary. You have no problem with people using whatever restroom. Still, you agree that trans people should be discriminated against because you decided they don't exist and then justify legal discrimination with some example of a rapist in prison with the clear implication that a single rapist impeached every trans person, impying again that rape is inherent to trans identity, which you already said doesn't exist. So if it doesn't exist like you believe, how does that rapist have anything whatsoever to do with anything at all? It looks like that's just there to give cover to the fundamental premise that you have decided who trans people "really" are, and it's fine to discriminate against them based on your disapproval.

I had no issue with trans women using women's toilets, but if women have an issue and the Supreme Court agrees then I'm fine with that too.

You say that I "agree that trans people should be discriminated against". I have previously said that there is other legislation preventing discrimination on the basis of transsexuality and that I support it, so clearly you're wrong. You say that my view on discrimination is "because you decided they don't exist". That's ridiculous. Trans people obviously exist. All I've said is that the court decided that trans women were men and that I agree.

I have never argued that the case of one imprisoned rapist was enough to justify anything. In post #110 I used the word "including" and gave two examples. The court's decision is clearly based on the evidence and legal argument in the round and not on the obviously and admittedly limited examples I chose.
 
I had no issue with trans women using women's toilets, but if women have an issue and the Supreme Court agrees then I'm fine with that too.

You say that I "agree that trans people should be discriminated against". I have previously said that there is other legislation preventing discrimination on the basis of transsexuality and that I support it, so clearly you're wrong. You say that my view on discrimination is "because you decided they don't exist". That's ridiculous. Trans people obviously exist. All I've said is that the court decided that trans women were men and that I agree.

I have never argued that the case of one imprisoned rapist was enough to justify anything. In post #110 I used the word "including" and gave two examples. The court's decision is clearly based on the evidence and legal argument in the round and not on the obviously and admittedly limited examples I chose.

(emphasis mine)

So why bring up a rapist at all? What was the point of that? It was to justify why Trans women are a threat. That is the only way that makes any sense. There is no other reason to mention that. You are justifying an unjust law [Text: Removed]. Not every woman agrees with you, the court, or the people who brought this suit, so obviously this isn't some vast outrage. You haven't included one piece of evidence that Trans women have a history of abuse in the bathroom, or any evidence whatsoever that might justify their exclusion.

Other laws do not justify an unfair one; frankly, you're ignoring what people tell you about where this road leads anyway, and the consequences of an unjust law, you say bans something you don't have a problem with. It seems you would have us all believe that your sole reason for supporting such laws is somewhat academic? This is strange. You also stated that these people don't exist in the first place because you decided they don't. So why the tepid support for discrimination? [Text: Removed], does that not make them mentally unstable according to your position? Does that not mean your support for their discrimination should be justified by mental illness not rapists? Or is that why you brought up the rapist in the first place?

What is your standard for discrimination? According to you, when can a government exclude and sanction? For whom is it justified?
 
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So why bring up a rapist at all? What was the point of that? It was to justify why Trans women are a threat. That is the only way that makes any sense. There is no other reason to mention that.

I brought it up because it was one of the cases widely discussed in the British media whilst For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers was going through the courts. I make no apology for that.

You are justifying an unjust law [Text: Removed].

I don't dislike trans people at all.

Not every woman agrees with you, the court, or the people who brought this suit, so obviously this isn't some vast outrage.

I don't expect every woman to agree with me and I've never presented the women only spaces issue as a "vast outrage". I recognise that the issue before the court was contentious and that the decision was never going to please everyone.

You haven't included one piece of evidence that Trans women have a history of abuse in the bathroom, or any evidence whatsoever that might justify their exclusion.

If you're interested in every piece of evidence presented to the Supreme Court, I believe there are videos of the hearings which you can watch on the website. I'm not entirely sure that the issue was abuse. At least partly, I think it was women feeling uncomfortable that people they regarded as men were able to access women only spaces.

Other laws do not justify an unfair one; frankly, you're ignoring what people tell you about where this road leads anyway, and the consequences of an unjust law, you say bans something you don't have a problem with.

Who is to say which laws are unfair? Where there is a conflict and the courts decide in favour of one party, the other is going to feel hard done by. I don't see a way round that. This particular case involved the narrow legal question of who are classed as women for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. I don't buy the apocalypse theory of today it's trans women, but tomorrow parliament will legislate to castrate all gay men or whatever.

You also stated that these people don't exist in the first place because you decided they don't.

I've never stated anything of the sort.

[Text: Removed], does that not make them mentally unstable according to your position? Does that not mean your support for their discrimination should be justified by mental illness not rapists? Or is that why you brought up the rapist in the first place?

What I actually said in post #110 was "I think the view that a man only has to self-identify as a woman and hey presto he becomes one is delusional". That's my opinion about that view, whether the person holding it is trans or not. I also think it's completely delusional to believe that Christ arose from the grave. I'm no psychiatrist, but in neither case would I say that such beliefs represented mental illness.

What is your standard for discrimination? According to you, when can a government exclude and sanction? For whom is it justified?

The Equality Act 2010 is where I'd start. The government, or strictly parliament, could either amend or repeal the EA at any time if it wished. I cannot think of any reason at present for either.
 
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I brought it up because it was one of the cases widely discussed in the British media whilst For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers was going through the courts. I make no apology for that.



I don't dislike trans people at all.



I don't expect every woman to agree with me and I've never presented the women only spaces issue as a "vast outrage". I recognise that the issue before the court was contentious and that the decision was never going to please everyone.



If you're interested in every piece of evidence presented to the Supreme Court, I believe there are videos of the hearings which you can watch on the website. I'm not entirely sure that the issue was abuse. At least partly, I think it was women feeling uncomfortable that people they regarded as men were able to access women only spaces.



Who is to say which laws are unfair? Where there is a conflict and the courts decide in favour of one party, the other is going to feel hard done by. I don't see a way round that. This particular case involved the narrow legal question of who are classed as women for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010. I don't buy the apocalypse theory of today it's trans women, but tomorrow parliament will legislate to castrate all gay men or whatever.



I've never stated anything of the sort.



What I actually said in post #110 was "I think the view that a man only has to self-identify as a woman and hey presto he becomes one is delusional". That's my opinion about that view, whether the person holding it is trans or not. I also think it's completely delusional to believe that Christ arose from the grave. I'm no psychiatrist, but in neither case would I say that such beliefs represented mental illness.



The Equality Act 2010 is where I'd start. The government, or strictly parliament, could either amend or repeal the EA at any time if it wished. I cannot think of any reason at present for either.
None of this changes what you said or what I understood from it. If you think you're being misunderstood, try explaining differently.
 
The implication is more or less correct. The court was interpreting the underlying legislation rather than developing new law, but yes, the effect of the judgement is to tell a man who self-identifies as a woman that the law still regards him as a man. His life choice may be to live as a trans woman, but, in the UK at least, he's still legally a man.
I’m not sure that’s the gist of it. 30 years ago, trans people proposed a difference between sex and gender. They said it applied to them without much argument. They said it applied to the rest of us without really checking but I won’t quibble for the moment other than to declare that from my own experience, sex seems relevant and gender seems like a triviality.

Regardless, trans people set out a difference between sex and gender, and told us transsexualism is impossible because sex is fixed, but transgenderism is relevant and crucial. Fair enough. Only in the last 10 or 15 years has it become common for trans activists to state that gender matters and sex doesn’t exist, or doesn’t matter, or somehow isn’t fixed after all, and with enough surgery or medical intervention that sex too changes (rather than just apparent sex).

From my reading the court is only rejecting that recent activism which tries to erase sex. The court seems perfectly ready to allow that a person who was born male can conclude they aren’t a man as expected, but a woman. Or that a person born female can conclude they aren’t a woman as expected, but a man. It’s just that the court will insist on not erasing that persons sex or dropping the concept of sex down Orwell’s memory hole.

In the situation you describe, the court would not be telling a man who self-identifies as a woman that she is legally a man. The court would be telling a male that she is legally a male, and occasionally that will continue to be relevant. It’s just a return to the earlier situation where gender was not allowed to erase sex.

I’m not sure we need to go any farther than that to return the discussion to a coherent defence of rights rather than some far-fetched theory disconnected from reality.
 
From the meeting of the British Medical Association:

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No doctor can credibly argue that sex is “biologically nonsensical”.

You can show me a human born with one foot, you can show me a human born with two feet who lost a foot in an accident, you can show me rarely a human born with 3 or 4 feet. The existence of these counterexamples doesn’t change the truth that humanity is bipedal and saying “humans have two feet” isn’t nonsensical.

For a doctor to pretend humanity is not sexually dimorphic, male and female, is just unsupported by basic observation, and to state otherwise can only come from ideology and wishful thinking.

Consider just some of the nonsense that would flow from that. We have a hundred years of sexist research that often only consider the effects of medical treatment in males. Feminists have protested that women die because of this short-sightedness. But let’s say that sex is “biologically nonsensical” and augmenting and validating any of that research with additional studies in actual females is just a waste of time. Testing seatbelts and airbags for safety with female drivers is just a waste of time. Ugh.

The annoying part is there’s no need to depart from reality to offer trans people some kind of dignity and equality. To treat people fairly, we don’t have to pretend that sex is just a bigoted fantasy, that it is not an evident, obvious, and pervasive reality. There is no need for doctors to bowdlerize science or pretend that maleness and femaleness aren’t real. And what’s worse, there is no way to ensure the safety and dignity of trans people by doing that. People are rejecting it in ways that can no longer be controlled or contained. So to prevent a total blowout failure of human rights culture we need to urgently cede the point that biological sex is real and not going away.

After that it’s not really all that hard to argue that trans people deserve space and respect to be themselves. It’s impossible to argue any of that, dangerously impossible, if activists expect the rest of us to pretend that dimorphic human sex isn’t real.
 
No doctor can credibly argue that sex is “biologically nonsensical”.

You can show me a human born with one foot, you can show me a human born with two feet who lost a foot in an accident, you can show me rarely a human born with 3 or 4 feet. The existence of these counterexamples doesn’t change the truth that humanity is bipedal and saying “humans have two feet” isn’t nonsensical.

For a doctor to pretend humanity is not sexually dimorphic, male and female, is just unsupported by basic observation, and to state otherwise can only come from ideology and wishful thinking.

Consider just some of the nonsense that would flow from that. We have a hundred years of sexist research that often only consider the effects of medical treatment in males. Feminists have protested that women die because of this short-sightedness. But let’s say that sex is “biologically nonsensical” and augmenting and validating any of that research with additional studies in actual females is just a waste of time. Testing seatbelts and airbags for safety with female drivers is just a waste of time. Ugh.

The annoying part is there’s no need to depart from reality to offer trans people some kind of dignity and equality. To treat people fairly, we don’t have to pretend that sex is just a bigoted fantasy, that it is not an evident, obvious, and pervasive reality. There is no need for doctors to bowdlerize science or pretend that maleness and femaleness aren’t real. And what’s worse, there is no way to ensure the safety and dignity of trans people by doing that. People are rejecting it in ways that can no longer be controlled or contained. So to prevent a total blowout failure of human rights culture we need to urgently cede the point that biological sex is real and not going away.

After that it’s not really all that hard to argue that trans people deserve space and respect to be themselves. It’s impossible to argue any of that, dangerously impossible, if activists expect the rest of us to pretend that dimorphic human sex isn’t real.

Doctors once said being gay was just a mental disorder. Things change, and hopefully, understanding sexuality will grow. Frankly I don't understand the distinctions you're making and that might be an interesting discussion, but it's irrelevant to this one.

The point is that people who aren't doctors or experts or Trans people get icked out by something they don't understand and something their religions call an abomination and decide they know the "real identity" and use that to justify hate. Then expect the law to support them. Judges who are not experts and are generally older and less inclusive can and, unfortunately, do regularly interpret the laws, sometimes, as in our case, blatantly illegally, to justify and codify the hate.

Usually, when the issue is people's rights, the haters obsess on whether or not trans people are real, when that is utterly irrelevant to the question of equality before the law. That is why I asked about people's personal theories about when it is justified to exclude and discriminate. Unfortunately, that question was deflected and went unanswered because the truth is that there is no reason in this case to do either.

It's irrelevant, what is "real" and what is not. If trans people can be discriminated against because one thinks they aren't real, so can anyone, with legal precedent and support.

What's not real is the right to discriminate based on opinion. I explained how our law is supposed to work. To discriminate, there must be compelling harm to other people. Thinking someone is not "real" because one doesn't like what they've done with their life or what they are saying just doesn't meet the bar.

Leave the rest to the individuals and their doctors. It's not our business. If we don't like their activism for some reason, then we are all perfectly free to disagree vociferously. What we are not entitled to do is use the law to force opinion and punish.
 
Judges who are not experts and are generally older and less inclusive

What's not real is the right to discriminate based on opinion.

I find your statement about judges to be somewhat confusing. Can you clarify what it means and also indicate if you are expressing an opinion or sharing real fact-based information?
 
I find your statement about judges to be somewhat confusing. Can you clarify what it means and also indicate if you are expressing an opinion or sharing real fact-based information?

What do you find confusing about older people being less inclusive? Do you find it otherwise? This is compounded by the people appointing them to lifetime appointments and their political agendas. Do you find that confusing? We live in an age where it is fucking blatant that Judges are making decisions based on hatreds and religion, polticqal expedience, and not the law. All you need to do to see that is look at a news ticker.


As for the other:

 
Let's ask the germane question: Do you find that laws discriminating against LGBTQ individuals are equitable and fair? At what point is it that the government can discriminate with actual cause?
 
This is compounded by the people appointing them to lifetime appointments and their political agendas.

For the sake of clarity, and as this thread is about a decision of the United Kingdom Supreme Court, can I just point out that justices are not given lifetime appointments, they have a mandatory retirement age of 75. Additionally, there is an independent appointment process which avoids political interference.

 
For the sake of clarity, and as this thread is about a decision of the United Kingdom Supreme Court, can I just point out that justices are not given lifetime appointments, they have a mandatory retirement age of 75. Additionally, there is an independent appointment process which avoids political interference.


And yet you have an unjust law. Curious how that happened. Not to mention a long history of homophobia, racism, and exploitation, is it your position that you have eradicated all traces of injustice in your courts?
 
The drag queens I know are gay men rather than trans.
That issue came up this weekend in the death thread.

The divergence of definitions of drag quickly became evident. I would like to say it was surprising to learn that a common decades-old public perception of drag had been supplanted with a politically corrected one, and one that makes little sense when examining its precepts.

The "magic" of "drag queens" is the convincing presentation of men as women. That's it. Most often, it has been accomplished with clever fashion, makeup, "tucking", and prosthetics. The more complete the illusion is, the more successful the performer can be IF the entertainment is still such as people want to see or hear it. Sometimes the act may be to present a character who is intentionally garish, bizarre, unconventional, or even intentionally ugly, if the act is schtick.

The beatification of drag is an odd vestigial bit of dogma with some parts of the LGBTQ population. It somehow becomes integral or foundational as a presumed cherished value of the entire group when it has only ever represented the identity of a portion of the group, arguably now becoming less defining as out gays of every stripe are allowed to speak for themselves rather than be constituents of some bar culture advocates.

For my part, I don't question that there are now trans persons who are also drag performers. There is an element of defiance of social mores that is fundamental to drag, and I am certain that it has now been swept up in identity politics. Somewhere along the line, drag became synonymous with gay instead of the art form that was once peopled by straight, gay, and bi men, and very rarely, women (but without the intent to appear convincingly as men, only to wear masculine clothes.)

The melange, potpourri, or goulash of changing components and redefinittions is exactly what much of the straight population is up in arms about against "woke" politics when it comes to sex and gender. The result that almost nothing, including sex itself, is fixed or knowable or constant, is anathema to the larger society. Misguided and self-appointed martyrs for "the cause" have attempted to push the margins to the end that it is triggering a backash against gay rights.

In an era in which the centrists and moderates were increasingly accepting gays and gay rights, the absolutists and redefiners have managed to raise the ire of people who previously had more-or-less a live-and-let-live mentality about sexual behaviors and equal rights. But then, the thought police began condemning everyone everywhere of whatever prejudice du jour was useful in self-victimization and the blame game. Just as in this very thread, exaggerations and hyperbolic accusations have replaced reality, and straw men have been put in front of real men in this discussion. This isn't new to radical advocates, and has been present on JUB from the very start, as I recall. And that is accurate, as it represents the diversitty of gay men and their political and social views.

As long as orientation was a matter of private acts, there was an increasing acceptance by the dominant heterosexual population. Now, activists have pushed extrermes, intentionally attempting to force straights to make significant cultural changes far beyond simply creating a children's book of "my two mommies" or whatever. Drag is almost universally associated with burlesque for the simple reason that it is. RuPaul hosting a show on TV doesn't change the essential nature of drag queens appearing in burlesque acts in every city where they entertain. Bringing ANY burlesque element to children is an aggressive move. It isn't about gay rights. You could host a reading time with a buxomous fishnet stocking wearing woman, not indecently exposed, but it would be nonetheless treated as sexualized content. But, in the perverse mantra of the hyper-activist, evincing a "homophobic" or "transphobic" response is evidence of their presence, intentionally ignoring that the reaction was artificially invoked.

Further, elevating cases where younger children are experiencing gender confusion when it appears to be the actions of a parent who denied binary sex has justly worried the larger society that a social view may be creating the confusion rather than it evolving independent of that view. Society rejects that possible inducement of gender confusion in child-raising. The result is now that multiple states have required the use of hormonal inhibition of puberty to be illegal for a pre-pubescent minor. In other words, society isn't convinced that a boy who feels he identifies as female might feel differently once he undergoes natural puberty. The concept that it will cause irreparable harm is not accepted. This is the same society that allows adult sexual reassignment surgery, so it isn't an absolute taboo against transexualism.

We are told that unless the absolutes advocated by the extreme are allowed, then we have become some dystopian society. Society rejects that reduction. We are seeing it over and over. All change is not progress. There are limits in the culture wars. We are finding them now. The true believers have to contextualize everything in terms of bigotry. Harris lost the election because she's a black woman, not because the DNC has become obsessed with gender politics, provoking a mainstream backlash against woke dogma.

And the US isn't alone in these social convulsions. Europe and the UK are undergoing their own catharsis.
 
And yet you have an unjust law. Curious how that happened. Not to mention a long history of homophobia, racism, and exploitation, is it your position that you have eradicated all traces of injustice in your courts?

It is not my view that all traces of injustice have been eradicated from the UK court system. Nobody is infallible and mistakes occur. It is also not my view that this particular Supreme Court decision is unjust. The court had to decide between women's groups who did not want to share single sex spaces with trans women on the one hand and trans women who did want to share those spaces on the other. There was always going to be a disappointed party.
 
What do you find confusing about older people being less inclusive?

As my post indicated, my confusion relates to your statement about judges. It is not clear whether "not experts" applies to all judges or only the ones who are also "generally older," and whether either of those conditions correlates with judges who are "less inclusive." In the alternative you may be suggesting that all judges are generally older, non-experts, and less inclusive than one or more other groups, such as expert, non-judges.

While it is true that the median age of judges serving in the US federal judiciary is approaching age 70 and that a significant percentage of them are over age 85, it seems that a more pertinent concern relating to inclusivity among judges may relate to a lack of diversity or inclusiveness within the federal judiciary, where 70 percent are men and about 80 percent are white.

With regard to older people being less inclusive, my anecdotal experience can certainly influence my opinion, but I understand that opinions can be skewed. I suspect that political affiliation would be a better predictor of a person's level of support for inclusiveness than age. I would be happy to entertain some real fact-based information on the matter.
 
It is not my view that all traces of injustice have been eradicated from the UK court system. Nobody is infallible and mistakes occur. It is also not my view that this particular Supreme Court decision is unjust. The court had to decide between women's groups who did not want to share single sex spaces with trans women on the one hand and trans women who did want to share those spaces on the other. There was always going to be a disappointed party.

You've already made it clear that you have no problem with discriminating against trans people. Then you run to the court to avoid answering why you think that's OK. The court has done what the court has done. It doesn't make it correct or just, or even logical. Trans women have been using public facilities all along. What harm did they cause? At what point is it that YOU THINK the government can discriminate with actual cause? What is YOUR standard?

I'm curious why YOU THINK this meets that standard?
 
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