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Ukraine in Revolution

bankside said:
It is normal that Ukraine should have friendly relations with neighbouring countries. I think it would seem legitimately odd from Russia's point of view that western countries would seem jealous that Ukraine would sometimes make overtures toward Russia. Yes, Russia's current policy in Crimea is inept and hostile and uncivilized, but we might have spent less time shutting Russia out over the last 12 years and more effort defining a role for it on the international stage. Would we care about Ukraine's relations with Russia if we had better relations with Russia as western nations? If it were better integrated into G8?
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Very good observations. NATO's aggressive expansion has kept Russian feathers ruffled almost constantly -- and there are consequences.
 
Kulindahr said:
Very good observations. NATO's aggressive expansion has kept Russian feathers ruffled almost constantly -- and there are consequences.
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Yes, well, NATO has expanded in a way that would make any prudent leader of Russia very wary. It has expanded in kind of a triumphalist "Nyeah nyeah, we won the Cold War" way. Of course, both the west and Russia won the cold war: Communism is gone!


As far as the current accusations of corruption and oligarchy, Russian economists, without any cynicism or recourse to soviet reflexive nationalism, can point to the same pattern of development in other nascent free markets back in the day.

I'm no apologist for Russian behaviour in Crimea; they're inept and inelegant thugs. But that has not happened in a vacuum, and several policy and diplomatic failures presage this moment. And frankly, the Russians are less inept and inelegant than the petty dictatorial buffoons on most of Russia's southern periphery. If the Russians had any brains, they would have accepted Yanukovych's ouster, waited for proper elections to normalise the Ukrainian government, and then insisted on Crimea's right to self determination, if Crimea wished to assert it with an actual free and fair referendum. A referendum held without the spectre of armed thugs "politely keeping the peace." IN all likelihood, given the Ukrainian bias against the Russian minority (linguistic harassment), inept foreign policy of Kiev, shambolic government under any of the main parties over the last decade, Crimea would have actually freely voted to separate. (Barring significant improvement on the part of Kiev). That would have been a strategic victory for Russian foreign policy and a clean victory instead of the current embarrassingly amateur marauding.
 
bankside said:
Yes, well, NATO has expanded in a way that would make any prudent leader of Russia very wary. It has expanded in kind of a triumphalist "Nyeah nyeah, we won the Cold War" way. Of course, both the west and Russia won the cold war: Communism is gone!


As far as the current accusations of corruption and oligarchy, Russian economists, without any cynicism or recourse to soviet reflexive nationalism, can point to the same pattern of development in other nascent free markets back in the day.

I'm no apologist for Russian behaviour in Crimea; they're inept and inelegant thugs. But that has not happened in a vacuum, and several policy and diplomatic failures presage this moment. And frankly, the Russians are less inept and inelegant than the petty dictatorial buffoons on most of Russia's southern periphery. If the Russians had any brains, they would have accepted Yanukovych's ouster, waited for proper elections to normalise the Ukrainian government, and then insisted on Crimea's right to self determination, if Crimea wished to assert it with an actual free and fair referendum. A referendum held without the spectre of armed thugs "politely keeping the peace." IN all likelihood, given the Ukrainian bias against the Russian minority (linguistic harassment), inept foreign policy of Kiev, shambolic government under any of the main parties over the last decade, Crimea would have actually freely voted to separate. (Barring significant improvement on the part of Kiev). That would have been a strategic victory for Russian foreign policy and a clean victory instead of the current embarrassingly amateur marauding.
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It's easier to see things when you have no passion involved, isn't it?
 
Russia Massing Military Forces Near Border With Ukraine

MOSCOW — Russia’s Defense Ministry announced new military operations in several regions near the Ukrainian border on Thursday, even as Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany warned the Kremlin to abandon the politics of the 19th and 20th centuries or face diplomatic and economic retaliation from a united Europe.

In Moscow, the military acknowledged significant operations involving armored and airborne troops in the Belgorod, Kursk and Rostov regions abutting eastern Ukraine, where many ethnic Russians have protested against the new interim government in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, and appealed to Moscow for protection.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp
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This might be a prelude to a Crimea like operation to "protect" the Russian nationals (or ethnics) and sympathizers in Eastern Ukraine; or, an effort to pin down Ukrainian forces which might be involved in any post-referendum Crimea action.

In any event it is not encouraging.
 
palbert said:
This might be a prelude to a Crimea like operation to "protect" the Russian nationals (or ethnics) and sympathizers in Eastern Ukraine; or, an effort to pin down Ukrainian forces which might be involved in any post-referendum Crimea action.

In any event it is not encouraging.
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The interim government has already essentially acknowledged they can do nothing in Crimea because Russia has these divisions mobilized on their border.
 
My longtime friend, an ethnic Russian, born in the Ukraine, and arrived in th US 6 months ago, assures me that the People in Crimea, including Russians, do not want this. The elections, as with everything else are corrupt.
 
Just another reminder that Crimea was only 'given' to the Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954.

To be blunt. The west doesn't give a shit about the Crimea or the Ukraine. Except that the Russians have their fleet docked in Sebastopol.
 
In an aggressive, provocative and totally vacuous move certain to bring Russia to its knees, sanctions have been imposed.

The United States, working in coordination with Europe, imposed a new round of sanctions on 11 prominent Russian and Ukrainian political figures on Monday as the showdown over Crimea reached a new stage of confrontation between East and West.

President Obama signed an executive order freezing the assets and banning visas for Russians deemed to be responsible for the seizing of Crimea or otherwise interfering in Ukrainian sovereignty.
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Of course the sanctioned - which do not included Putin - likely are insulated from the effects of the sanctions.

The highest ranking government official on the list, Mr. Rogozin, who oversees the defense industry, chided the American president as “Comrade Obama” and asked whether he had considered the fact that those on the list did not have property or assets abroad.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/europe/us-imposes-new-sanctions-on-russian-officials.html?hp
 
rareboy said:
To be blunt. The west doesn't give a shit about the Crimea or the Ukraine. Except that the Russians have their fleet docked in Sebastopol.
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Nah its more than that, if Russia gets Crimea it gets a massive area of untapped gas and oil reserves - both under ground and in the new area of sea Russia now has control of. Before the revolution happened there was a massive amount of interest in the area from Exxon and Shell, now Gazprom will get it all. I have a feeling thing is the major reason behind all of this. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ly-attempt-to-control-the-crimea-9193464.html
 
palbert said:
In an aggressive, provocative and totally vacuous move certain to bring Russia to its knees, sanctions have been imposed.
Of course the sanctioned - which do not included Putin - likely are insulated from the effects of the sanctions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/europe/us-imposes-new-sanctions-on-russian-officials.html?hp
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Russia basically dumped all their US Holdings this past week: a whopping $138b. Without an embargo, any more "sanctions" are useless.
 
maxpowr9 said:
Russia basically dumped all their US Holdings this past week: a whopping $138b. Without an embargo, any more "sanctions" are useless.
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Have you got a link for that? Everything I can find is just speculation, and it seems to have been going on longer than just the last week -- some say three months.
 
Kulindahr said:
Have you got a link for that? Everything I can find is just speculation, and it seems to have been going on longer than just the last week -- some say three months.
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A quick search of Russia and US bonds would turn up a lot of hits but this one is the most researched...

Did Russia Just Dump a Huge Amount of U.S. Government Bonds?

The EU is the one that is gonna suffer the most from this bind since they are the ones that deal with Russia the most outside of China and Russia would rather deal in Renminbis than US dollars. The EU needs to wake the fuck up and side with the US on economic affairs or they will head into a depression first.
 
maxpowr9 said:
A quick search of Russia and US bonds would turn up a lot of hits but this one is the most researched...

Did Russia Just Dump a Huge Amount of U.S. Government Bonds?

The EU is the one that is gonna suffer the most from this bind since they are the ones that deal with Russia the most outside of China and Russia would rather deal in Renminbis than US dollars. The EU needs to wake the fuck up and side with the US on economic affairs or they will head into a depression first.
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I notice that a related article gives the results of polls that indicate that Russia would not have won a referendum, even before they started acting like thugs. I looked around and found another that says that an honest vote right now wouldn't even garner them a third of the vote.
 
Kulindahr said:
I notice that a related article gives the results of polls that indicate that Russia would not have won a referendum, even before they started acting like thugs. I looked around and found another that says that an honest vote right now wouldn't even garner them a third of the vote.
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The horse has bolted....with ethnic Russians representing some 58 pct of Crimea's population the captioned article's referendum speculation is rather thread bare.....I wander which department wrote this article...the CIA?
 
^Yes best spies of CIA.....


leftover from Iraq....

the blessings of the UN of course ...what hyppocrites could they be!!!
 
American, and European Union sanctions?

Follow the high profile meeting between Siemens boss Joe Kaeser, and Tsar Vladimir Putin yesterday with the Siemen's executive pledging that his company will continue to invest in Russia.

At the meeting with Kaeser and Putin was one of the marked men who has been added to the American, and EU travel ban.

In an interview with the ZDF programme Heute Journal last night, despite aggressive questioning Kaeser was defiant and unrepentant - he smirked all the way through the interview! He also claimed he had informed Chancellor Merkel of his intention to proceed with this long planned meeting. So much for sanctions...for German companies need to sell their products to Russians.
 
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