United States Run Amok (again)

[JB3]

That information is the joint property of the citizen and the institution. There is no legal right to it unless both consent.

You're not quite right there. Being a citizen they're required to pay taxes. If they do not willingly give the government information required to collect taxes, they forfeit their right to consent. (if you're a tax cheat on US soil, the government needs no consent whatsoever to get the information they require)

 

[Kulindahr]

You're not quite right there. Being a citizen they're required to pay taxes. If they do not willingly give the government information required to collect taxes, they forfeit their right to consent. (if you're a tax cheat on US soil, the government needs no consent whatsoever to get the information they require)

So the bank has no requirement to cooperate.

 

[JB3]

So the bank has no requirement to cooperate.

Well, they're not a US bank so its a little different. They're not regulated by the US' agencies, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't cooperate.

 

[frankfrank]

I'm unclear about this...does this mean that if a U. S. citizen moves to Canada (and still has U. S. citizenship), doesn't ever plan to again return to the U. S. even briefly unless for a funeral or something, and makes money at a blue collar job and belongs to a Canadian union, this person still has to pay U. S. taxes as well?

That is wrong on so many levels, if so.

Yes, I can see being liable for the deferred taxes on retirement IRA's, or royalties from holding a U. S. patent or something, but not on income which is EARNED by virtue of being in Canada.

 

[palemale]

This is the problem I have with this action. The US seems to be acting like it has a right to order foreign banks to turn over data, when it really doesn't.

Basically if this was pursued in the manner of a diplomatic request, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But demanding or ordering foreign banks to comply is really an arrogant action which is not warranted by the authority the US has in Canada.

Payment for virtually every international transaction involving US dollars is handled by a clearing house in New York City known as CHIPS. http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/fedpoint/fed36.html I would imagine that the US government has jurisdiction over any foreign bank that uses the CHIPS system. Since it is inconceivable that there are any banks in the world that do not conduct some business involving dollars, that would give the US government pretty broad jurisdiction over foreign banks.

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

I'm unclear about this...does this mean that if a U. S. citizen moves to Canada (and still has U. S. citizenship), doesn't ever plan to again return to the U. S. even briefly unless for a funeral or something, and makes money at a blue collar job and belongs to a Canadian union, this person still has to pay U. S. taxes as well?

Sort of. They are required by American law to pay taxes to America. That's Shoe 1.

Shoe 2 is that they would have to make over $91,500, plus certain living expenses (for example, if an employer gave them room and board that total would be excluded as well). So they would need to be making quite a bit in order to really worry about the taxes, and even then standard deductions at that tax bracket (such as charity donations and investments) should help them avoid paying a lot of the taxes they owe.

That is wrong on so many levels, if so.

Not if they wanted to maintain US citizenship. As has been pointed out, there are a number of legal advantages to maintaining US citizenship, ranging from voting privileges on up.

RG

 

[BostonPirate]

Every nation on this planet somehow links into the american economy via banks and the NYSE.

Those that dont are the guys getting humanitarian aide.

The world will find it hard to operate without the banking systems that America operates.

Look guys.... there are some really bad people out there who are dodging taxes, and we are broke and need them to pay what they owe.

This is an assault on offshore tax shelters, not banks.

You guys are all smarter than your posts here suggest. Youwant to talk giving tax credits to people for every month they live abroad? thats fine. But the real issue here is that we could save WIC, just as an example, if we collect the offshore tax dodgers overdue payments.

So whats it going to be? Feeding babies, or some other relevant social program the GOP wants to axe, or are we going to ask these banks to stop acting like leaches and conform to mutually beneficial interactions when dealing with america.

These banks don't have a problem setting up accounts for americans dodging taxes, they just have a problem with filing tax papers on them at the end of the day.

IF this is not resolved, we are going to see the teabaggers gain even more influence and a dark era of USA Isolationism will emerge.

so be realistic and think about ALL the sides of this thing.

 

[Tengilethos]

Every nation on this planet somehow links into the american economy via banks and the NYSE.

Those that dont are the guys getting humanitarian aide.

The world will find it hard to operate without the banking systems that America operates.

Look guys.... there are some really bad people out there who are dodging taxes, and we are broke and need them to pay what they owe.

This is an assault on offshore tax shelters, not banks.

You guys are all smarter than your posts here suggest. Youwant to talk giving tax credits to people for every month they live abroad? thats fine. But the real issue here is that we could save WIC, just as an example, if we collect the offshore tax dodgers overdue payments.

So whats it going to be? Feeding babies, or some other relevant social program the GOP wants to axe, or are we going to ask these banks to stop acting like leaches and conform to mutually beneficial interactions when dealing with america.

These banks don't have a problem setting up accounts for americans dodging taxes, they just have a problem with filing tax papers on them at the end of the day.

IF this is not resolved, we are going to see the teabaggers gain even more influence and a dark era of USA Isolationism will emerge.

so be realistic and think about ALL the sides of this thing.

But are you thinking about all the sides as well? Would you agree to an agreement where your bank indirectly gives information about business dealings you have with foreigners living in the US to their respective governments? And especially if Iran orders your banks to hand over information about their citizens accounts to them, dissidents among them?

I absolutely agree with the goal to catch tax evaders, Switzerland is just south of our border

But this is not the right way. Surely you can get an agreement with Canada to help you collect the taxes your people owe your government.

I am really surprised that you have no problem with this. For me the USA is the paragon of freedom, and should be the anti-surveillance state as well, I don't associate totalitarianism or Big Brother with the US. How can you stay that calm with the way your government collects more and more data about you? Not only in this case with the account informations, there are multiple other examples. Why are there no mass demonstrations against the PATRIOT act? I am really confused.

Oh and what does WIC stand for?

 

[BostonPirate]

But are you thinking about all the sides as well? Would you agree to an agreement where your bank indirectly gives information about business dealings you have with foreigners living in the US to their respective governments? And especially if Iran orders your banks to hand over information about their citizens accounts to them, dissidents among them?

I absolutely agree with the goal to catch tax evaders, Switzerland is just south of our border

But this is not the right way. Surely you can get an agreement with Canada to help you collect the taxes your people owe your government.

I am really surprised that you have no problem with this. For me the USA is the paragon of freedom, and should be the anti-surveillance state as well, I don't associate totalitarianism or Big Brother with the US. How can you stay that calm with the way your government collects more and more data about you? Not only in this case with the account informations, there are multiple other examples. Why are there no mass demonstrations against the PATRIOT act? I am really confused.

Oh and what does WIC stand for?

If help from other nations was forthcoming, we would not be having this discussion.

As for information... its unavoidable. All our phones even have GPS now, so any law enforcement agency can se exactly where you are at all times. There are 300 million americans.

Do you think the US Gov't is going to spend the resources to monitor someone that has not rung a bell here or there?

Individual states go much farther than the Federal system. And example... if you pee in public and get arrested for indecent exposure, in some states, you have to register on a sex offenders list online, and mail postcards to your neighbors telling them where you live and that you are a convicted sex offender.

You are underestimating just how much freedoms americans have surrendered to the politics of fear.

Fear of them.... the arabs, the GOP holds hearings on Muslim activities in the House of Reps, the sex offenders, the murderers, the ...clutch pearls... GAAYS.

Americans were attacked on 9-11 by some monsters. We have been terrorized by our leaders ever since. It needs to stop but that would require a democratic majority in both chambers of the senate large enough to overide a presidential veto.

Funny thing about american presidents and the powers their predecessors held. They may criticize them when THEY DONT have them, but as soon as their asses hit the chair in the Oval office, they suddenly don't want to give up their toys of power.

That has nothing to do with the tax evaders and non cooperation from other nations that provide tax havens for mega millionaires.

That is what this is about. If you are aiding an american or an american business to break the law by not paying taxes, then it may have a detrimental effect from here on out with the USA and your ability to have access to those that you are breaking the law with.

Before anything we are a nation of laws, that no man is above.

 

[Kulindahr]

Before anything we are a nation of laws, that no man is above.

"The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced."
-- Frank Zappa US musician, singer, & songwriter (1940 - 1993)


Once upon a time, trial by jury was a check against unjust laws, because the jury could decide a person was guilty of no harm and exonerate him, and declare the law unjust or unfair. Now, it matters not if the law is patently foolish, plainly unfair, or obviously unconstitutional; the PTBs have conspired to neuter this part of the system of checks and balances, demanding that we the people enforce their laws even when we know it's wrong.

"The rule of law" is a lie used to uphold evil; the reality is that it's the rule of those who are in charge of the law, with the only chance of justice belonging to the rich. It's possible in the U.S. to be accused of a crime, get arrested, then the accuser confesses it was a lie, but that confession is excluded from evidence by law, so you get tried and convicted on the basis of an established lie because the law says it's still the truth. It's possible to be arrested and sent to prison for actions inflicted on you while you're drugged unconscious, because the law defines the other person(s) as not possibly responsible, and the actions constitute a crime. It's possible to go to jail for a paperwork error done by a police officer, because the law specifies that the citizen is responsible for the accuracy of what's on the forms.

I call that running amok.

 

[BostonPirate]

then get people elected that will change the legislation.

 

[Kulindahr]

then get people elected that will change the legislation.

Me and what PAC and what billionaire?

The only candidates with a chance are the ones the rich people consider worth buying.

 

[BostonPirate]

Me and what PAC and what billionaire?

The only candidates with a chance are the ones the rich people consider worth buying.

then start with campaign finance reform. You are an eloquent writer and you could write a blog. You could find candidates that think campaign reform is a good idea and try to get them elected.

Its a Republic.

Thats how its done.

It has Huge benefits and some drawbacks. One drawback is that federally, if you elect a dud of a congressman, the people have no recourse.

We only have the justice dept and congressional oversight, and since the politicians run that, its pretty much putting the fat kids in charge of the candy store.

The USA was built to move slowly, and it is having a hard time with the speed of the world as a result. People want action now and forget what they wanted yesterday.

But the reason that people are in office right now is because of what you wanted yesterday.

It helps to have a clearer vision of candidates and what they can realistically accomplish.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

My American boyfriend tells me that here in the Netherlands, American citizens pay income taxes to both countries, but that there's an agreement with the US that you can deduct the taxes you pay in one country from the taxes you pay in the other.
(So you don't actually end up paying... say... 80% income tax).

 

[BostonPirate]

My American boyfriend tells me that here in the Netherlands, American citizens pay income taxes to both countries, but that there's an agreement with the US that you can deduct the taxes you pay in one country from the taxes you pay in the other.
(So you don't actually end up paying... say... 80% income tax).

so if their tax rate is higher in the nation abroad than the tax rate at home, they would actually get money back for the difference.

You may qualify for an exclusion from tax of a limited amount of income earned while working abroad. However, you must file a tax return to claim it. In general, foreign earned income is income received for services you perform in a foreign country. You also may be able to claim an exclusion or a deduction from gross income for your reasonable housing costs that are over a certain base amount. Generally, you will qualify for these benefits if your tax home (defined below) is in a foreign country, or countries, throughout your period of bona fide foreign residence or physical presence and you are one of the following:

A U.S. citizen who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year, or
A U.S. resident alien who is a citizen or national of a country with which the United States has an income tax treaty in effect and who is a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year, or
A U.S. citizen or a U.S. resident alien who is physically present in a foreign country or countries for at least 330 full days during any period of 12 consecutive months.

http://www.taxmeless.com/IRS593Publication.htm

So workers abroad get EXTRA tax deductions for housing as well.

this thing with the banks is designed to stop people from hiding large chunks of cash offshore.

 

[MoltenRock III]

so if their tax rate is higher in the nation abroad than the tax rate at home, they would actually get money back for the difference.

Yes and no, it's rather complicated depending on circumstance. In 2009 over $100 billion of foreign tax credits were claimed.

this thing with the banks is designed to stop people from hiding large chunks of cash offshore.

The IRS only shoots itself in the foot with this nonsense. Remember these banks are the same ones the USA needs support and cooperation from to track & shut down terrorist related money transfers.

The only thing this supposed crackdown does is just make it a little more expensive for people to shovel money offshore. Frankly, anyone with significant savings should have offshore money protection as a standard financial instrument to protect oneself from the lawsuit happy Americans. That said, one should also make sure all transfers are done legally, and to pay whatever legal taxes are required. Having a trust plus offshore banking can help one's peace of mind and reduce tax liability legally.

 

[bankside]

My American boyfriend tells me that here in the Netherlands, American citizens pay income taxes to both countries, but that there's an agreement with the US that you can deduct the taxes you pay in one country from the taxes you pay in the other.
(So you don't actually end up paying... say... 80% income tax).

If help from other nations was forthcoming, we would not be having this discussion.

Before anything we are a nation of laws, that no man is above.

True. Of course Dutch banks or Canadian banks are not part of your nation and are neither above nor under your laws. In Canada we are also a nation of laws...Canadian laws! Our banks are under no obligation to follow something that is not a law here. And the United States has never, and will never, pass laws covering Canada.

Help from other nations is a privilege that can be requested, not something that can be dictated by American fiat. And probably something that a country with a smart Secretary of State would have requested via negotiation. As Harke points out, there are treaties in place. Additional information sharing could have proposed, where the boundaries of what is allowed could be debated openly and where it would be clear as to the safeguards that apply.

I don't know why it surprises me to hear Americans defending this kind of law, after all it was passed there. Probably because this was the Post-Bush era and I thought a lot of this was supposed to be getting better.

You are underestimating just how much freedoms americans have surrendered to the politics of fear.

That may be, but why should Canadians surrender our freedoms to the politics of American fear? It's just not on.

 

[BostonPirate]

It could have been handled better and certainly Sec Clinton has revealed herself to be the most effective member of the Obama cabinet. Obama is a wiley politician, though and I don't think his reasons for the demands are quite as obvious as we are considering. I guess I need to call up a few colleagues and talk this over with them.

The tax havens need to end. America cannot continue on the path its on. IT Has GOT to increase revenue somehow.

As for the USA writing laws for other nations? it hasn't happened. They are merely regulating how the international banking industry does business in america.

It has to pass through the house, senate, and get the presidential signature to be law.

This is regulatory fiat. It is within the purview of the IRS to operate this way. It can create levys without any legislative or judicial permission.

Section 6331(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. IRC 6331 - Levy and distraint.

(a) Authority of Secretary. If any person liable to pay any tax neglects or refuses to pay the same within 10 days after notice and demand, it shall be lawful for the Secretary to collect such tax (and such further sum as shall be sufficient to cover the expenses of the levy) by levy upon all property and rights to property (except such property as is exempt under section 6334) belonging to such person or on which there is a lien provided in this chapter for the payment of such tax.

by the tax code of the USA the sec of the treasury under the direction of the IRS has complete authority to take whatever he wants whenever he wants from whomever he wants, provided its on american soil,

here is a list of the exemptions....

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/26/F/64/D/II/6334

 

[josher]

Several years ago, the U. S. government wanted information from the Swiss banks about people with secret numbered accounts who were accused of doing something illegal. (Sorry, I don't remember the details.

Of course the Swiss banks said they couldn't give up that information. Privacy rights, laws, etc.

Then the U. S. leaned on them. (Again, I forget what the threats involved.)

The Swiss caved and gave the U. S. all the information they wanted.

I'm sure this story is somewhere online, but I have no idea where to find it.

I also seem to remember a similar story about Swiss banks and Holocaust money.

What sealed the deal was the fact that neither the Swiss banks nor government wanted the bad publicity that would come from fighting those requests.

 

[JB3]

Several years ago, the U. S. government wanted information from the Swiss banks about people with secret numbered accounts who were accused of doing something illegal. (Sorry, I don't remember the details.

Of course the Swiss banks said they couldn't give up that information. Privacy rights, laws, etc.

Then the U. S. leaned on them. (Again, I forget what the threats involved.)

The Swiss caved and gave the U. S. all the information they wanted.

I'm sure this story is somewhere online, but I have no idea where to find it.

I also seem to remember a similar story about Swiss banks and Holocaust money.

What sealed the deal was the fact that neither the Swiss banks nor government wanted the bad publicity that would come from fighting those requests.

And that's why the canadian banks will give the US government any information they need.