US apologizes

[rareboy]

"(Reuters) - The United States apologized on Friday for an experiment conducted in the 1940s in which U.S. government researchers deliberately infected Guatemalan prison inmates, women and mental patients with syphilis."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6903RZ20101001

I'd missed this story.

I guess this was one way of testing meds without using lab rats.

But kudos to the US for apologizing. Now it is the turn of all the other countries who pulled the same kind of shit with their own citizens or those of other countries.

 

[archive]

"(Reuters) - The United States apologized on Friday for an experiment conducted in the 1940s in which U.S. government researchers deliberately infected Guatemalan prison inmates, women and mental patients with syphilis."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6903RZ20101001

I'd missed this story.

I guess this was one way of testing meds without using lab rats.

But kudos to the US for apologizing. Now it is the turn of all the other countries who pulled the same kind of shit with their own citizens or those of other countries.

i hate the types of stories.......its like me apologizing for something my great great great grandfather did.....which is bullshit

 

[Lostlover]

I like the apologies, but let's not think they end here!

The US also injected African Americans with syphallis too.

 

[rareboy]

i hate the types of stories.......its like me apologizing for something my great great great grandfather did.....which is bullshit

A state is not the same thing as an individual and to equate the two is jejune to say the least.

Nations have the obligation to say 'sorry' when they contravene the fundamental tenets of their own constitution and Bill of Rights and trample on the basic human rights and dignity of other human beings. To not do so implies socio-pathic behaviour.

I think that the present day citizens of the US can actually hold their heads up a bit higher by acknowledging fault. It is the sign of a maturing society.

 

[Corny]

i hate the types of stories.......its like me apologizing for something my great great great grandfather did.....which is bullshit

try to be a "young generation" german

 

[Corny]

during the bush years i have met a few young americans here who tried to disguise themselves as canadians or australians.
too bad that I can keep those accents apart fairly well

 

[bankside]

A state is not the same thing as an individual and to equate the two is jejune to say the least.

However an apology is the same thing as an apology, and I find "state apologies" to be insincere, and frankly offensive.

An apology should either be personal, or if it is collective that's fine, but only if it is delivered by the legislature within the term that the wrongdoing occurred. If that ship has sailed, then I think a "Statement of Regret" is appropriate or even a "Statement of Condemnation" but to apologise for the wrongdoing of someone else, or for the wrongdoing of some other generation, just doesn't cut it. It implies moral responsibility where none can be found.

 

[rareboy]

I disagree.

The act of apologizing indicates contrition.

This is not the cheap kind of 'I'm sorry if you were offended', but an acknowledgement of past errors by the state.

It also bears with it the necessity of reparation, which is a moral responsibility for the people who may have benefited from the atrocity committed.

If all nations got into the habit of apologizing, I'll bet there's be a lot less strife and conflict in the world today.

 

[Lostlover]

try to be a "young generation" german

I don't believe in blaming people for things they didn't do, naturally. But when I hear of Antisemitism in Germany, I just shake my head. Being aware of your history (recently especially) isn't too much to ask nor is it unfair to expect more from some people.

You remember Andross from Berlin? He came in here to give us a lecture on dictators. Sorry! Bush was horrible but he wasn't a dictator. And this is someone who knew of Bush before he became president. I saw that train wreck coming in middle school.

That would be like an American coming into a thread with Australians and chastising them about fucking the natives.

 

[CowboyBob]

during the bush years i have met a few young americans here who tried to disguise themselves as canadians or australians.
too bad that I can keep those accents apart fairly well

During the Bush years whenever I traveled to Canada I wouldn't tell anyone I was American. For those who knew I constantly had to apologize for being American. While driving through Toronto in 2006 people saw my license plates on my car and I was honked at and flipped off more than once. One guy yelled, "American, go home to your fucking President".

That all stopped when Mr. Obama was elected. His presence brought peace. No wonder he won the Nobel Prize.

 

[bankside]

I disagree.

The act of apologizing indicates contrition.

This is not the cheap kind of 'I'm sorry if you were offended', but an acknowledgement of past errors by the state.

It also bears with it the necessity of reparation, which is a moral responsibility for the people who may have benefited from the atrocity committed.

If all nations got into the habit of apologizing, I'll bet there's be a lot less strife and conflict in the world today.

Well, I still think it is the wrong party to show contrition. I think it is based, in other things, in a bunch of mumbo jumbo about the sins of the fathers being visited on the sons. Direct moral responsibility for wrongdoing cannot be bequeathed, imho, either to a natural person or to a future government. No question that reparations for direct personal suffering are certainly in order. If someone robs my neighbour's house and leaves stolen goods in my back yard as they make their getaway, of course I can't expect to make use of those goods and I'd have to give them back. On the other hand "I'm sorry to hear you were robbed" is different from "I'm sorry I robbed you."

One is an expression of regret that is just neighbourly and proper, the other is an acceptance of responsibility that is not mine to make.

Anyway, I'm posting to point out that in another thread I actually might be arguing the opposite about collective responsibility:
http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323074

So now I'm confused and have to think about it. Oh, and this doesn't help clear things up for me either:

During the Bush years whenever I traveled to Canada I wouldn't tell anyone I was American. For those who knew I constantly had to apologize for being American. While driving through Toronto in 2006 people saw my license plates on my car and I was honked at and flipped off more than once. One guy yelled, "American, go home to your fucking President".

That all stopped when Mr. Obama was elected. His presence brought peace. No wonder he won the Nobel Prize.

I think it is disgraceful that you should have been treated that way by my fellow citizens. Unless maybe you had a Bush + Cheney bumper sticker or something, or "Bomb Iraq again." I'm sorry to hear that you were singled out without people knowing where you actually stood as an individual. People should know by now that Americans do not have a hive mind like the Borg. I did think this was classy however: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/index_old.shtml

 

[Corny]

I don't believe in blaming people for things they didn't do, naturally. But when I hear of Antisemitism in Germany, I just shake my head. Being aware of your history (recently especially) isn't too much to ask nor is it unfair to expect more from some people.

you mean the same kind of antisemitist that may celebrate their hate in your country under the cover of free speech? at least here the government is after them. there are idiots everywhere, despite history or reality. look around you. or at the thread about evolution in HT.

You remember Andross from Berlin? He came in here to give us a lecture on dictators. Sorry! Bush was horrible but he wasn't a dictator. And this is someone who knew of Bush before he became president. I saw that train wreck coming in middle school.

andross was from leipzig, afaik. and i don't know what he has to do with this topic ..

That would be like an American coming into a thread with Australians and chastising them about fucking the natives.

and what would be wrong about that?

 

[BigChicken]

During the Bush years whenever I traveled to Canada I wouldn't tell anyone I was American. For those who knew I constantly had to apologize for being American. While driving through Toronto in 2006 people saw my license plates on my car and I was honked at and flipped off more than once. One guy yelled, "American, go home to your fucking President".

That all stopped when Mr. Obama was elected. His presence brought peace. No wonder he won the Nobel Prize.

It's amazing to me that any American would be ashamed to be an American. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, and I have one of the highest standards of living of anyone in the world. People are literally dying in the desert trying to come across the border from Mexico to Arizona, because they are so desperate to come here. If we are so bad, why do so many people want to come here? And why do so few want to leave?

I am not ashamed to be a citizen of the United States. I like my country.

Like all countries, it may make some mistakes from time to time, we are only human, but overall, it is a great country with great people.

We may not be perfect, but there are a lot of countries that are far worse than us in terms of human rights and freedom, for example, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

 

[Lostlover]

you mean the same kind of antisemitist that may celebrate their hate in your country under the cover of free speech? at least here the government is after them. there are idiots everywhere, despite history or reality. look around you. or at the thread about evolution in HT.


andross was from leipzig, afaik. and i don't know what he has to do with this topic ..


and what would be wrong about that?

1) Of course we have idiots here too. But we also don't have a history with Jews. We also have 310 million people. You can say what you want to an extent, but vandalizing a temple is rare.


2) Andross seems to have forgotten his country's recent history. He also showed disgust about being tortured on the anniversary of the Holocaust there in Germany. It seems like he's purposefully choosing to forget his country's history.

3) Americans can't chastise Australians for displacing aborigines when we did the same with native Americans. That's what's wrong with that.

 

[bankside]

It is true that some countries have currents of ignorance or hate that run deeper than others.

But assuming the events of World War II are a German problem - that non-Germans are somehow immune to the animus of hatred - is a misguided assumption. Worse, it is practically a guarantee that we will repeat that insanity without learning from their low point in history.

Germans can't inherit culpability for the idea of the Reich. The postwar generations of German have a better opportunity than most people to understand what went wrong, because they can study it in proximity. For that reason, the risk of re-ignition is probably less in Germany than in other places whose citizens smugly assume it can never happen to them.

 

[Corny]

1) Of course we have idiots here too. But we also don't have a history with Jews. We also have 310 million people. You can say what you want to an extent, but vandalizing a temple is rare.

well you have a history with native americans. or blacks/slaves. and the kkk - amongst others.

2) Andross seems to have forgotten his country's recent history. He also showed disgust about being tortured on the anniversary of the Holocaust there in Germany. It seems like he's purposefully choosing to forget his country's history.

he didn't choose to forget it. you can't. he just didn't want to be chastised for something that he didn't do nor had any influence on.

3) Americans can't chastise Australians for displacing aborigines when we did the same with native Americans. That's what's wrong with that.

no? if the american acknowledges that what his country did to the indians was wrong, and the Australian doesn't do the same for what his country did to the aborginees - he has every right to chastise him.
if you see it like that, the us shoudl immediately remove themselves from ANY conflict around the world. because .. to say it frankly - you have more than enough wrongs.

 

[Lostlover]

well you have a history with native americans. or blacks/slaves. and the kkk - amongst others.

We sure do. And we don't have cross burnings anymore. Or rallies in favor of making blacks slaves again. Nor do you see people advocating genocide of native Americans here either.

You do have a lot of older white people though whitewashing history to make some of the most despicable people in our history more tolerable. But they're a fringe and are mocked.

he didn't choose to forget it. you can't. he just didn't want to be chastised for something that he didn't do nor had any influence on.

Poor Andross. No one here blamed him for it yet he feels the need to absolve himself. It's a shame you can be 70 years removed from a tragedy and you can have people too miffed to talk about it or hear about it.

no? if the american acknowledges that what his country did to the indians was wrong, and the Australian doesn't do the same for what his country did to the aborginees - he has every right to chastise him.
if you see it like that, the us shoudl immediately remove themselves from ANY conflict around the world. because .. to say it frankly - you have more than enough wrongs.

We can only hope ^^^.

 

[Corny]

We sure do. And we don't have cross burnings anymore. Or rallies in favor of making blacks slaves again. Nor do you see people advocating genocide of native Americans here either.

so race isn't an issue anymore? neither is antisemitism? i doubt that.

You do have a lot of older white people though whitewashing history to make some of the most despicable people in our history more tolerable. But they're a fringe and are mocked.

most of those are living outside of germany. more holocaust deniers live outside of germany than in. mocking anything related to wwii is a big taboo here, sites like "hipsterhitler" (google it) or certain british jokes are a taboo (and the brits love it). also something that the young generation does have a problem with - while many old people don't even want to celebrate new years eve, because it reminds them too much of war.

 

[Kulindahr]

We sure do. And we don't have cross burnings anymore. Or rallies in favor of making blacks slaves again. Nor do you see people advocating genocide of native Americans here either.

Such a sanitized version of America you live in.

All I have to do to find people and propaganda favoring turning blacks back into slaves, or shipping them "home", is to drive through certain parts of any nearby city with a population of over 50k. For that matter, I can find it on the walls of restrooms on interstate rest stops, state parks, and even businesses.

Cross burnings -- not lately. But it wasn't too long ago that a black family was encouraged to relocate by the burning of a cross into their lawn with RoundUp, just down the road. Of course the sheriff's department listed it merely as vandalism, just like they list gay guys getting brutalized as "personal disagreements".

The KKK is still with us, and other white supremacists are alive and well.

 

[CowboyBob]

It's amazing to me that any American would be ashamed to be an American. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, and I have one of the highest standards of living of anyone in the world. People are literally dying in the desert trying to come across the border from Mexico to Arizona, because they are so desperate to come here. If we are so bad, why do so many people want to come here? And why do so few want to leave?

I am not ashamed to be a citizen of the United States. I like my country.

Like all countries, it may make some mistakes from time to time, we are only human, but overall, it is a great country with great people.

We may not be perfect, but there are a lot of countries that are far worse than us in terms of human rights and freedom, for example, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

Of course. Nobody said they weren't ashamed to be American. We were ashamed to have George W Bush as President. The rest of the world hated Americans because of him. He was a figurehead for America.

Yes, America has one of the highest standards of living in the world, but there are other countries that have a high standard also. There are other countries that treat their citizens better and also worse than America.

I knew a fellow in Australia who would phone me and we would talk about cars. Whenever the subject became politics he would slam Bush and Americans. He thought everyone thought like Bush until I informed him that only a noisy minority thought like Bush did, and that's who the media focused on. I told him I hated Bush and couldn't wait until he went away. People associate the President with America, hence the hatred of America when Bush was President.

There has always been a group of Americans who enjoyed "Special Rights" like some call it. Those people were wealthy, white, heterosexual Christian males. They have been the ruling class since the country started and now they now feel threatened because other groups want what's actually equal rights. They've been waving the carrot of "The American Dream" in front of other groups claiming that anyone can achieve it, but in reality very few do.

Native Americans were slaughtered and their way of life was robbed from them by whites and it was justified by calling them "Godless Savages". My God, women didn't even have the right to vote until 1920, and that was controversial then. Blacks couldn't use the same washroom, drinking fountain, restaurant as whites when I was a kid. A group of gay men sitting in a bar could be arrested just for being there and not doing anything. Knowing this is behind us (for the most part) is called PROGRESS, but there are some called conservatives who are fighting this still.

The above mentioned group of Americans who enjoyed their Special Rights think the world belonged to them, but it doesn't. That's why they're against progress. I like my country also, but wrapping yourself in the flag and saying America is the greatest without seeing what it's actually like isn't reality, it's fantasy.