Verdict on Proposition 8

[laikaNYC]

I love how everyone who disagrees with Mercury is labeled a troll.

 

[BostonPirate]

I love how everyone who disagrees with Mercury is labeled a troll.

you don't care for mercury, lil Buddy?

why do you make constant general questions designed to attack rather than actually get real answers?

 

[MercuryJones]

People who disagree with me are not trolls.

People who disingenuously make inflammatory or extraneous posts to provoke or disrupt are trolls.

 

[MercuryJones]

Courts do not take the temperature of majority opinion and transcribe them into continuing an injustice.

Not explicitly, but I don't think there's a way to separate one's perspective from the evolving consciousness of society.

That said, support for same sex marriage is indeed greater today than support for interracial marriage was at the time of Loving. But more importantly, the writing is on the wall - same sex marriage will be the law of the land, one way or another, sooner rather than later. And I don't think Roberts wants his court to go down on the wrong side of history in this way.

 

[MercuryJones]

But personally, I would like to know that my country was on my side and not strongly disapprove of me or my marriage.

Then why don't you stop being gay and marry a woman?

 

[scream4ever]

^^^80% of Americans opposed the Citizens United ruling. What do you say about that?

 

[BostonPirate]

gay marriage HAS happened here in New England. All we are trying to do is overturn Doma now.

so as to whether or not gay marriage will happen in America has already been answered. that isn't even on the table. the question is whether some states will be allowed to create discriminatory legislation through popular vote.

 

[poolerboy]

I'm just saying that America seems to be strongly against it. That's why I don't think it's going to happen.

Right and the question is: should that matter at all in this case? My reply still stands without a good rebuke.

 

[rareboy]

I think that it is likely that the US Supreme Court will uphold the will of the American people.

The American people and the voters of California have sent a clear message saying that they do not want gay marriage.

The gay community may not like it, but this is a Christian nation. Most people in this country do believe in God and in strong family values. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. I think that frustrates a lot of gay people, because they don't feel like they are part of the majority.

I think if it were put to a vote today it would overwhelmingly be that marriage should be one man and one woman.

Some say that the family values issue helped President Bush win a clear solid victory over John Kerry in 2004.

But that's my honest take on it.

Frankly, I wouldn't believe you if you said good morning after the nose stretching tales you've posted on the forums here.

But surprise. While the US may be populated by a whole bunch of fundamentalist religious types including right wing old testamentarian 'christians'.... it is not a 'christian' nation.

It doesn't surprise me though that you'd be preaching that you'd prefer if your country was 'behind you'.

 

[MercuryJones]

Oh silly me, you wanted a national poll???

Well done.

 

[CoolBlue71]

I think that it is likely that the US Supreme Court will uphold the will of the American people.

We're liable to find out.

The American people and the voters of California have sent a clear message saying that they do not want gay marriage.

There was a time in this country when women couldn't vote. There was a time when African-Americans couldn't vote. Give it more thought.

The gay community may not like it, but this is a Christian nation. Most people in this country do believe in God and in strong family values. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. I think that frustrates a lot of gay people, because they don't feel like they are part of the majority.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am1.html

I think if it were put to a vote today it would overwhelmingly be that marriage should be one man and one woman.

You lack a minimal understanding of why this has been argued as a matter of civil rights.

 

[laikaNYC]

Frankly, I wouldn't believe you if you said good morning after the nose stretching tales you've posted on the forums here.

But surprise. While the US may be populated by a whole bunch of fundamentalist religious types including right wing old testamentarian 'christians'.... it is not a 'christian' nation.

It doesn't surprise me though that you'd be preaching that you'd prefer if your country was 'behind you'.

We actually are a Christian nation. More than 3/4's of Americans actually. I'm sure you'd prefer we were a Godless society, but that's not the case.

 

[BostonPirate]

We actually are a Christian nation. More than 3/4's of Americans actually. I'm sure you'd prefer we were a Godless society, but that's not the case.

the founders had a different idea.

Just because 75 perrcent believe that something is true, it does not make it the identity of the nation.

we are founded on separation of church and state and individual freedom to pursue religions of our choosing.

that means we are a nation of many beliefs that are not allowed to define our policy.

 

[laikaNYC]

the founders had a different idea.

Just because 75 perrcent believe that something is true, it does not make it the identity of the nation.

we are founded on separation of church and state and individual freedom to pursue religions of our choosing.

that means we are a nation of many beliefs that are not allowed to define our policy.

John Jay, Founding Father and the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

 

[BostonPirate]

but not the requirement.

If you are here to save all us queers from hell, then save it.

I am not interested in the discussion.

 

[JB3]

the founders had a different idea.

Just because 75 perrcent believe that something is true, it does not make it the identity of the nation.

we are founded on separation of church and state and individual freedom to pursue religions of our choosing.

that means we are a nation of many beliefs that are not allowed to define our policy.

That's not technically true. Most of the founders viewed the influence of christianity and religion as something quite positive that SHOULD define our policies in many ways. What they did not believe in was a religious test to achieve office, the creation of a national religion, or the favoring of one religion over another.

 

[JB3]

I think that it is likely that the US Supreme Court will uphold the will of the American people.

The American people and the voters of California have sent a clear message saying that they do not want gay marriage.

The gay community may not like it, but this is a Christian nation. Most people in this country do believe in God and in strong family values. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. I think that frustrates a lot of gay people, because they don't feel like they are part of the majority.

I think if it were put to a vote today it would overwhelmingly be that marriage should be one man and one woman.

Some say that the family values issue helped President Bush win a clear solid victory over John Kerry in 2004.

But that's my honest take on it.

The supreme court will affirm Judge Walker's ruling and Prop 8 will be relegated to the ash-heap of history. It doesn't matter what the people of California thought; denying rights through popular vote will NEVER be allowed by any court in the United States. The moment that it does, we might as well pack up and call it a day because the Republic will be dead.

No, they haven't. America as a whole is supportive of gay marriage, more now than ever before. Ballot measures like Prop 8 are not, nor will they ever be, a true representation of the will of the people.

The family values BS is just a fancy way of saying 'I believe in this, so lets try and make everyone else live by it too'. I don't care what these people believe; their personal beliefs have no bearing on my personal life, and I want them OUT of it.

 

[TickTockMan]

Just because 75 perrcent believe that something is true, it does not make it the identity of the nation.

You are giving credence to that being anything more than just a name. Almost all of the “Christians” I have met know nothing to very little about Christianity. They call themselves Christians because that is what their family considered themselves for generations, not because they practice any form of religion.


You can see it in the real world by how little most people go to any church, and by how little they actually listen to what was said if they do. Most people just follow their parents generation after generation.

 

[Kulindahr]

I think that it is likely that the US Supreme Court will uphold the will of the American people.

The American people and the voters of California have sent a clear message saying that they do not want gay marriage.

The gay community may not like it, but this is a Christian nation. Most people in this country do believe in God and in strong family values. And I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. I think that frustrates a lot of gay people, because they don't feel like they are part of the majority.

I think if it were put to a vote today it would overwhelmingly be that marriage should be one man and one woman.

Some say that the family values issue helped President Bush win a clear solid victory over John Kerry in 2004.

But that's my honest take on it.

Have you read the decision? The arguments to support (the falsely labeled) "traditional marriage" boil down to nothing but prejudice.

If all Californians had gotten out and voted, Proposition 8 would have gone down in flames. That vote doesn't represent the will of the people.

This is not "a Christian nation". Jefferson was not a Christian, Washington was not a Christian, Franklin was not a Christian, and the same was true of many of the signers of the Declaration and of the Constitution. Many, indeed, were Masons, and it's not possible to be a Mason and a Christian (just a Deist). On top of that, an early treaty specifies that we are not a Christian nation, and in private correspondence Jefferson said the same.

A vote? Fundamental rights don't get put to a vote. Marriage is a subset of the right of freedom of association. Since government is not allowed to restrict rights unequally -- because rights come from the individual, not the state -- freedom of association cannot be restricted by law differently for some than for others. So government either must abandon marriage to the private sector, or grant it to all.

Of course if the Supreme Court affirms this decision (as it ought to, rationally, as a reading of the decision shows), it won't eliminate all restrictions on the intimate expression of freedom of expression known as marriage; polyamorous forms will still be excluded. Nevertheless, the negation of Proposition 8 is a step forward.

 

[BostonPirate]

I think the whole thing is just irrelevant, yeah...

I mean, I'm a christian. So? what does that have to do with my sexuality and my right to marriage.

I am not defined politicaly or moraly by the faith of my family and upbringing. I am defined by my own independent ideas of right and wrong. that is the freedom of the first amendment, and it is my moral conclusion that all people gay or straight have a right to equal marriage, and that society has the obligation to ensure that.

This whole christian nation arguement infers that gays are immoral people. We are not. We are diverse and different and hard to understand for the heterosexual majority, but their fear does not equate to me being immoral.