Veterans Running Up The Deficit

[BostonPirate]

No it isn't. If a vet has heart disease, and had a genetic predisposition for it, why should American taxpayers foot the bill for treating it? The same goes for any ailments that is not a direct (or even indirect) result of serving.

You can't complain in one thread about the healthcare congress critters receive (and they serve the government just like any civil servant does), and then in another advocate full no-questions-asked healthcare for vets.

no

I think the nation has a responsibility to care for its vets, no matter the cost. It is what we need to do for the men and women that provide our safety. I can see no good reason not to do this, morally and just one or two less billion dollar stealth bombers would pay for it.

We value the equipment more than the men and women we send to operate them.

I just think we should offer more to our veterans than that.

 

[JB3]

no

I think the nation has a responsibility to care for its vets, no matter the cost. It is what we need to do for the men and women that provide our safety. I can see no good reason not to do this, morally and just one or two less billion dollar stealth bombers would pay for it.

We value the equipment more than the men and women we send to operate them.

I just think we should offer more to our veterans than that.

The nation does have a responsibility to care for its vets, but it does not have the responsibility to pay for conditions unrelated to their service. NOTHING you can say, and no rationalization of it that you can twist yourself into, can make it so.

You, and others in this thread, need to separate health issues caused by service from health issues that were not. There is a difference. The fact that you guys don't understand that the US should not be paying for that is evidence enough that none of you really care about fixing the nation's financial problems. There are hundreds of other government programs just like this one, where money is spent that should not be spent and people view them as sacred cows not to be touched.

If you're actually serious about fixing the nation's finances, no program should be sacred and no department should be beyond reproach.

 

[jdoe4822]

I recently completed training as a firefighter and this is a controversy that's come up in that field as well - what qualifies as a LOD injury. Heart attacks are the number one killers of fireman (and if occuring on or within 24 hours of coming off shift, considered as LOD as a result of stress), with cancer a close second, and my understanding is that both happen at a higher rate among firemen than in the general population. I know lung cancer is currently considered a LOD injury, but if you smoked as well, good luck getting full coverage for that (eventually to be a non issue here in Central FL as most depts won't even consider you as a candidate if you smoke now). Including other forms of cancer, which may or may not be related to exposure to hazardous materials and environments is currently being discussed. Different states have different regulations, though.

 

[Willie Boy]

ABSOLUTELY!

While in the theater of war they were willing to die for their nation at any moment and we should repay that with healthcare for them for life, no clauses, no ifs ands or buts... just cover for them for anything anytime.

They earned it.

and if congress and the presidency wants to make so many wars that it is too expensive, then the rest of the nation either has to pay the taxes to cover the bill or elect people that are not fond of blowing up other nations.

There it is in a nutshell. If they think we are spending too much money on veterans benefits, the need to stop creating so many vets. I'm all for defending our nation, but blasting the Hell out of an independent nation isn't the best way to do that. Sometimes it may be necessary, but too often and it just creates more enemies.

Something I would like everyone to think about.... Just how much are these Senators paid for their service to this nation (not just monetary pay, but housing allowances, vehicles, private aircraft, healthcare for them and their families, etc, etc... ). Now ask yourselves just what sacrifices have they made for their nation that they should be entitled to it and veterans who have sacrificed life and limb (or at least been willing to), have been forced to kill, have seen things no human being should ever have to see.

If they really want to ease the deficit, why don't they give back a portion of the money they have been raping out of the people as they sit around making laws to benefit themselves and those that support them?

 

[JayHawk]

i dont know if you subscribe online and that gets you access to all the times (army air force navy)...but they had a breakdown a few weeks ago in the air force times

I don't subscribe online because usually a copy is floating around the lounge on the ship. The breakdown was what i was referring to in earlier post. It quite handily lays it out. On that note it is ridiculous that the flags have kept their jobs while cutting the enlisted man.

No it isn't. If a vet has heart disease, and had a genetic predisposition for it, why should American taxpayers foot the bill for treating it? The same goes for any ailments that is not a direct (or even indirect) result of serving.

You can't complain in one thread about the healthcare congress critters receive (and they serve the government just like any civil servant does), and then in another advocate full no-questions-asked healthcare for vets.

I also find it interesting that Molten has completely ignored Kulindahr's post. I'm not remotely surprised, however.

See FF post about LOD and then please feel free to prove that the illness a vet is suffering from isn't at a minimum aggravated by being in situations of great personal terror.

What does "trick" mean?

My father is a WWII vet -- he only qualifies for some prescription medicine but the hassle in getting in is not worth the effort for him and others I know like him.

Why would the VA cover your expenses? Were you injured in Vietnam?

Sounds like White Eagle either retired from the military or he kept the tricare benefits or whatever they happened to be calling it.

Tricking is getting laid with no relationship involved. Called turning tricks; these days it is called meeting someone from the internet...

I recently completed training as a firefighter and this is a controversy that's come up in that field as well - what qualifies as a LOD injury. Heart attacks are the number one killers of fireman (and if occuring on or within 24 hours of coming off shift, considered as LOD as a result of stress), with cancer a close second, and my understanding is that both happen at a higher rate among firemen than in the general population. I know lung cancer is currently considered a LOD injury, but if you smoked as well, good luck getting full coverage for that (eventually to be a non issue here in Central FL as most depts won't even consider you as a candidate if you smoke now). Including other forms of cancer, which may or may not be related to exposure to hazardous materials and environments is currently being discussed. Different states have different regulations, though.

It is amazingly difficult to figure out all of the associated physical and mental stress factors and how they affect the body.

 

[White Eagle]

What does "trick" mean?

My father is a WWII vet -- he only qualifies for some prescription medicine but the hassle in getting in is not worth the effort for him and others I know like him.

Why would the VA cover your expenses? Were you injured in Vietnam?

I don't know why your father doesn't get his medicines. It should be the same as for me. Maybe when they wrote the VA bill that covers me they did it different from WWII.
I was not injured in Viet Nam nor while I was in the Navy. I have never been to Viet Nam. My expenses are covered because that is the way the Nam Vets are entitled. Cannot explain why. When I first went to my clinic here they had me listed as co pay. Since I have never had to copay I showed them my DD214 and she changed it to no copay. (DD214 is the paper showing where you served).
Trick? Really? It's having sex. I would have thought this term remained the same.

 

[White Eagle]

The nation does have a responsibility to care for its vets, but it does not have the responsibility to pay for conditions unrelated to their service. NOTHING you can say, and no rationalization of it that you can twist yourself into, can make it so.

You, and others in this thread, need to separate health issues caused by service from health issues that were not. There is a difference. The fact that you guys don't understand that the US should not be paying for that is evidence enough that none of you really care about fixing the nation's financial problems. There are hundreds of other government programs just like this one, where money is spent that should not be spent and people view them as sacred cows not to be touched.

If you're actually serious about fixing the nation's finances, no program should be sacred and no department should be beyond reproach.

It's sad to hear you have so little compassion for the Vet that served in Conflicts and Wars. The Viet Nam Vets are entitled to treatment for anything because that's the way it has been written and because it's the right thing to do. Since I have no illnesses that could be related to my service, I lucked out.

 

[JayHawk]

And lets face it, the bill that slithered its way through Congress wont fix healthcare BUT something needs to fix healthcare. The richest nation on earth should have the ability to care for every one of its citizens.

 

[Lostlover]

Let me see if I can help you guys out.
I am a Viet Nam Veteran. The last two years of my service was the first two years of the US involvement in Viet Nam.
The only medical services I am not eligible for is hearing, visual and dental. All my medical has been paid for by the VA. Now that I have Medicare the VA goes to them and what they do not cover, the VA does.
Now, my service the last two years was in Hawaii. Yes, I spent 2 years at a Naval Communications Station in Hawaii. The only way I might have been exposed to Agent Orange is if I tricked with a military person that just came back from Nam and I did trick. Hawaii was the special Rest & Recreation spot for all the military services.
Let's see what any of you have to say about my Veterans medical treatments and if I am entitled to them.

Thanks for your service White Eagle. You confirm my belief that conservatives are the chickenhawks like Reagan, Bush and Cheney.

You deserve every penny of healthcare you've gotten and more. It's just a shame most veterans support the party of a loudmouth like Sampson who blames them for the deficit exploding in the last ten years when it ironically was a chickenhawk in Bush that blew up our balance sheets.

 

[JayHawk]

Isn't that just whining and old tune? Did Bush spend like a Soccer Mom at macy's? Yup but Obama quadrupled the budget and then promises to halve it... nice huh?

And before you start going ... the stimulus he had to do .. just go ahead and look at the folowing years... Obama doesnt get any cheaper as time goes by.

You can say all that until your blue in the face but the actual numbers do not lie. So feel free to join us on planet reality

 

[JayHawk]

A mere drop in the bucket compared to WWII and using GDP as a norm.

Of course none of the normal players around here feel as if anything done was worthwhile.

 

[BostonPirate]

Isn't that just whining and old tune? Did Bush spend like a Soccer Mom at macy's? Yup but Obama quadrupled the budget and then promises to halve it... nice huh?

And before you start going ... the stimulus he had to do .. just go ahead and look at the folowing years... Obama doesnt get any cheaper as time goes by.

You can say all that until your blue in the face but the actual numbers do not lie. So feel free to join us on planet reality

and so the give away that bush did to the banks and the HUGe deficit he created by cutting taxes and spending on war like a whore at sax fifth avenue have nothing to do with it?

You are smarter than that and so are we. The heritage blog is biased. How about a look at fortune 500's take DURING the bush presidency....

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/31/magazines/fortune/deficit_sloan.fortune/index.htm

If you use realistic numbers rather than what I call WAAP - Washington Accepted Accounting Principles - the real federal deficit for the current fiscal year is more than 2-1/2 times the stated deficit.

Why am I inflicting this information on you? Because there's been so much joyous noise about the budget emanating from Washington, despite the subprime mess and market meltdowns (which don't bode particularly well for future tax collections), that my natural contrarianism makes me feel like bombing the buzz machine.

In addition, so many investors (and speculators) are fleeing to the supposed safe haven of Treasury securities lately that it's a good time to take a look at what's really going on with the federal budget.

Bush was pretending that there was no Budget issue even as the entire national economy was melting down

the Economists had been warning that the republican handling of the economy was leading to the mess, and If I remember correctly Obama stepped into the Debt when he came to office. So saying the spending was his fault is just patent dishonesty or severe ignorance of basic economic principles and facts...

Further on....

Wait, there's more. The Treasury will fork over $108 billion of interest on the trust fund's $2.2 trillion of Treasurys - but will give the trust fund IOUs, not cash. They won't count in the deficit either. Add that $186 billion to the stated budget deficit, and it more than doubles, to $344 billion

in other words, Bush was cooking the books, and the national debt when Obama walked into office shows it....

We end up with a total deficit of more than $400 billion by undoing another piece of WAAP ledger-demain: the $97 billion increase in Treasury securities held by "other government accounts," such as federal employee pension funds.

Thanks to the magic of Washington math, that doesn't increase the deficit, even though it increases the government's overall debt. Don't you wish you could keep books this way at home?

so lets look at the truth of the debt, not the deficit. The Debt is the total money owed and the deficit is the yearly shortfall when comparing income versus outlay....

With no fanfare and little notice, the national debt has grown by more than $4 trillion during George W. Bush's presidency.

It's the biggest increase under any president in U.S history.

On the day President Bush took office, the national debt stood at $5.727 trillion. The latest number from the Treasury Department shows the national debt now stands at more than $9.849 trillion. That's a 71.9 percent increase on Mr. Bush's watch.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4486228-500803.html

 

[JB3]

It's sad to hear you have so little compassion for the Vet that served in Conflicts and Wars. The Viet Nam Vets are entitled to treatment for anything because that's the way it has been written and because it's the right thing to do. Since I have no illnesses that could be related to my service, I lucked out.

I have compassion for vets. They're entitled to treatment for injuries and conditions caused (directly or indirectly) by their service. Nothing more, nothing less

 

[MoltenRock III]

No it isn't. If a vet has heart disease, and had a genetic predisposition for it,... [Text: Removed by Moderator - Improper use of quote tags.]

In your first post on this thread you said, and I quote, "they mention a high number of vets diagnosed with diabetes receiving funds based on their exposure to agent orange, even though there is no link whatsoever that agent orange is responsible."

This thread wasn't and hasn't been about "heart disease", but you throw that canard out there simply because I proved that your first statement was utterly false. So you have to spin, deflect, and cry, while refusing to acknowledge the link, and try to change the subject completely from Mayo doctors (and others) confirming Agent Orange exposure and diabetes over to heart disease.

No matter what proof you are shown you will always, always, stick to your original misinformed opinion. This is what a typical cult member does. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they refuse to acknowledge facts. You are entitled to your own opinion but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.

This post is a perfect example of why I consider the Foxpublicans cultists.

 

[archive]

I have compassion for vets. They're entitled to treatment for injuries and conditions caused (directly or indirectly) by their service. Nothing more, nothing less

however there is the rub.....once you throw the word indirectly in there (which it should be) a ridiculous list comes up just because of the not so normal circumstances a military member may experience...( and no im not questioning your compassion)

 

[JB3]

In your first post on this thread you said, and I quote, "they mention a high number of vets diagnosed with diabetes receiving funds based on their exposure to agent orange, even though there is no link whatsoever that agent orange is responsible."

This thread wasn't and hasn't been about "heart disease", but you throw that canard out there simply because I proved that your first statement was utterly false. So you have to spin, deflect, and cry, while refusing to acknowledge the link, and try to change the subject completely from Mayo doctors (and others) confirming Agent Orange exposure and diabetes over to heart disease.

No matter what proof you are shown you will always, always, stick to your original misinformed opinion. This is what a typical cult member does. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they refuse to acknowledge facts. You are entitled to your own opinion but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.

This post is a perfect example of why I consider the Foxpublicans cultists.

This thread is exactly about heart disease and any other condition that may not have been caused or aggravated by the service of vets, and is still being covered anyways. The facts, which you continue to deny because they conflict with your ideological lunacy, are as follows: Vets are receiving care and payments for conditions not related to their service; BIPARTISAN members of congress and of the debt commission are questioning that spending, including some prominent veterans; despite the questions, the VA is continuing to expand this spending.

You cannot refute those facts, because they are provided in the article you linked to.

I'm shocked that you have, as of yet, still not read your own article.

 

[JB3]

however there is the rub.....once you throw the word indirectly in there (which it should be) a ridiculous list comes up just because of the not so normal circumstances a military member may experience...( and no im not questioning your compassion)

Yes, but there are more than a few conditions that ARE being covered that would not have been affected in either way by the service of vets.

 

[archive]

Yes, but there are more than a few conditions that ARE being covered that would not have been affected in either way by the service of vets.

agreed....

but its irony at its finest

i personally just find it funny that they care about things that shouldnt be covered (idealistically they shouldnt).......but it takes years of studying for others takes to wrangle coverage or get covered at all...some examples included....jp-8 exposure, burn pits, agent orange, hydrazine, etc

 

[JB3]

agreed....

but its irony at its finest

i personally just find it funny that they care about things that shouldnt be covered (idealistically they shouldnt).......but it takes years of studying for others takes to wrangle coverage or get covered at all...some examples included....jp-8 exposure, burn pits, agent orange, hydrazine, etc

Well, that just reflects the ease of deciding what shouldn't be covered and the relative difficulty of proving that things should be. (mainly because the military would hide how dangerous certain weapons were, and it would take time, and pressure, in order to get them to admit it)

I agree that they should default to being more generous than being too stingy, but at the same time there also needs to be some common sense with spending. Just because its a program for funding veteran's medical care does not mean that it should be beyond scrutiny, and should be beyond questioning.

 

[archive]

Well, that just reflects the ease of deciding what shouldn't be covered and the relative difficulty of proving that things should be. (mainly because the military would hide how dangerous certain weapons were, and it would take time, and pressure, in order to get them to admit it)

I agree that they should default to being more generous than being too stingy, but at the same time there also needs to be some common sense with spending. Just because its a program for funding veteran's medical care does not mean that it should be beyond scrutiny, and should be beyond questioning.

you dont have to reiterate with me lol..for the most part everything you said was in the realm of the opinion i already held....i think instead of throwing money at a problem...a system should be put into place where you cover what needs to be covered...instead of making an appearance....and this is what a civilized convo looks like folks