RE: "Attacking a guy who storms into your place with a knife is "overboard"?
Of course not. By all means blow them away with a shotgun if you have one, because you have no way of knowing how things will turn out if you attempt a less lethal form of subduing them. That's just common sense. Butt once they've been disarmed and no longer pose a threat to you, then the dynamics of the situation have totally changed, which is where you're unable to see the forest for the trees.
I wanted to clarify the above...I meant blow them away in the context of what occurred in this particular case, in which the robbers continued making aggressive moves after the owner started reaching for a weapon, with one of them even climbing over the counter. In other words, shoot them
only if they advance towards you with knives after you point your gun at them.
Butt if they're just standing there in shock at the sudden turn in events, or retreating, there's no justification to use lethal force if there's a counter between you and them, even if they're still holding knives. However, if a robber has a gun in his hand, that's a whole different story, and you obviously have every moral right to defend yourself by blasting away without an iota of warning. (Although I'm sure that would be illegal in many areas.)
Note: I've given up on expecting most posters to read my responses to other people before posting. As the pattern with a thread like this is always the same...many people read only the opening post and nothing more. Then they make the same points and raise the same issues as previous posters who I've already responded to. So basically, all I can do is rehash the same responses over and over, for each of these people individually. Because the only thing they'll read is a response to their particular post. So don't hold it against me when I repeat myself over and over.
This thread has devolved into stupidity. They entered the business to rob and do harm to accomplish this if need be, hence the knives. They deserved whatever they got, including an ass spanking and kicks in the head and whatever else the victims had at their disposal.
RE: "This thread has devolved into stupidity."
Oh, I see...if someone has an opinion that differs from yours, then
they are automatically the "stupid" one, because you're
always 100% right.
RE: "They entered the business to rob and do harm to accomplish this if need be, hence the knives."
There's no question about that, and they may even have been planning to murder the owner after he turned over the money, because it happens all the time. Butt that's not the issue here.
RE: "They deserved whatever they got, including an ass spanking and kicks in the head and whatever else the victims had at their disposal"
Butt Canada is not a barbaric third world country in which it's legal for angry crime victims to inflict potentially lethal injuries on disarmed criminals who have been effectively subdued. The country has a system of laws and courts to deal with people who commit crimes, and they don't need vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.
So no, a robber doesn't "deserve" to be kicked in the head after he's been disarmed and subdued. In a civilized country, the punishments administered are supposed to be humane, and handed out by the courts rather than individual crime victims who may place very little value on human life. Or, who may have grown up in countries where it's common for a village of psychopathic idiots to beat a petty thief to death with tree limbs.
All I'm saying is that human beings should be treated
at least as humanely as dogs. And since it'd be considered cruel to repeatedly kick a vicious dog in the head after it's been captured and is no longer a threat, the same thing should apply to vicious humans.
And again, the punishment for attempted robbery in Canada is not the death penalty or permanent brain damage.
The fact that the criminals are being pitied baffles me.
They willingly came into someone's establishment threatening their life. I pretty much feel that THAT'S going overboard. The store owners did not know what they were there to do. Who's to say they were truly disarmed? Had another weapon hidden in their hoodies or pants? A gun perhaps? Even if they were disarmed, these are two young men vs. an older man and a woman. Based on pure physical ability, they could easily overpower the owners, bear spray or not. Get some adrenaline and rage in you and the rest is history.
What did you expect of the store owners? Pull out the Bible and read a few verses to the teens? Give them a Preferred Shopper's card and free cigarettes? Give me a break. Complaining about a spanking and kicks to the head? He's lucky he didn't lose his life aka gunshot.
When you're a robber entering someone's home/business, anything goes the moment you step inside their house/store.
RE: "The fact that the criminals are being pitied baffles me."
So who exactly is "pitying" them? Are you even aware of how debilitating brain injuries can be from kicks to the head? If you are, and you still don't see anything wrong with criminals being violently kicked in the head after they've been disarmed and subdued, why don't you move to a third world country where it's common for village idiots to stone thieves to death? Oh, butt wait...you wouldn't like it there if someone got pissed off at you and decided to frame you for theft.
Because all they'd have to do is claim you tried to sneak away with something that belonged to them. Then, after all the bloodthirsty psychopaths gathered around and started smashing your body with big rocks, you'd be wishing you lived in a civilized country, where a court of law is used to administer
humane punishments when people are framed for crimes.
RE: "They willingly came into someone's establishment threatening their life."
That's not in dispute, nor is it the issue.
RE: "Who's to say they were truly disarmed?"
"They?" Didn't you watch all the video? One of them ran away immediately after being bear sprayed, which left the owner with just one robber to deal with.
RE: "Had another weapon hidden in their hoodies or pants? A gun perhaps?"
So what if he did? What good would it do him? The owner was holding him in an awkward position to where the robber was bracing himself on the floor with his hands. And since he wasn't even able to cover his bare ass, how do you think he could reach for another weapon?
RE: "Even if they were disarmed, these are two young men vs. an older man and a woman. Based on pure physical ability, they could easily overpower the owners, bear spray or not."
OMG! Watch the video, dude! Again, the owner ran one of them off immediately with the bear spray! And the way he was manhandling/overpowering the remaining robber, it was extremely obvious that he was stronger than him and could easily have kept him pinned until the police arrived. So there was ZERO need for the woman to kick him in the head over and over. Hell, the owner was so confident he had him subdued, he even took one of his hands off him to repeatedly hit him in the butt, etc. with his fist. And what exactly was the purpose of that, other than doing it out of anger...which was the same reason his wife was kicking him in the head.
RE: "What did you expect of the store owners?"
I expect them to let the court system administer the punishment, and not physically assault someone with potentially lethal kicks to the head after he's been effectively disarmed and subdued.
RE: "Give me a break."
No, give ME a break and watch the video so you'll know what you're talking about.
RE: "Complaining about a spanking"
OMG! You didn't even read the opening post of this thread...or the poll options! Unbelievable!
RE: "and kicks to the head?"
Are you even aware of how debilitating brain injuries can be from kicks to the head? If you are, and you still don't see anything wrong with criminals being violently kicked in the head after they've been disarmed and subdued, why don't you move to a third world country where it's common for village idiots to stone thieves to death? Oh, butt wait...you wouldn't like it there if someone got pissed off at you and decided to frame you for theft.
Because all they'd have to do is claim you tried to sneak away with something that belonged to them. Then, after all the bloodthirsty psychopaths gathered around and started smashing your body with big rocks, you'd be wishing you lived in a civilized country, where a court of law is used to administer
humane punishments when people are framed for crimes.
RE: "He's lucky he didn't lose his life aka gunshot."
That's very true, because he
deserved to be shot the second he jumped over the counter with that knife in his hand.
RE: "When you're a robber entering someone's home/business, anything goes the moment you step inside their house/store."
That's very true...up to the point the robber has been disarmed and subdued. Then it becomes murder if you kill him, and you'd be no better than him.
Exactly my feeling when I see this thread. She should be arrested and charged?
The guy committed a crime and people are having pity for him here? Wow. I have no words to describe that. He got what he deserved. There have been videos of far worse anyways, and the people don't get charged. I'm not sure about Canadian law though.
RE: "Exactly my feeling when I see this thread."
Other than some barbaric third world countries, I'm not aware of any country that would allow you to legally murder a robber who has been disarmed and subdued.
RE: "She should be arrested and charged?"
Are you even aware of how debilitating brain injuries can be from kicks to the head? If you are, and you still don't see anything wrong with criminals being violently kicked in the head after they've been disarmed and subdued, why don't you move to a third world country where it's common for village idiots to stone thieves to death? Oh, butt wait...you wouldn't like it there if someone got pissed off at you and decided to frame you for theft.
Because all they'd have to do is claim you tried to sneak away with something that belonged to them. Then, after all the bloodthirsty psychopaths gathered around and started smashing your body with big rocks, you'd be wishing you lived in a civilized country, where a court of law is used to administer
humane punishments when people are framed for crimes.
RE: "The guy committed a crime and people are having pity for him here?"
So...you believe the punishment for attempted robbery should be to let the victim administer vigilante justice, and violently kick a subdued robber in the head over and over, without any regard for whether it will cause permanent brain damage? Wow. I have no words to describe that.
RE: "He got what he deserved."
Butt Canada is not a barbaric third world country in which it's legal for angry crime victims to inflict potentially lethal injuries on disarmed criminals who have been effectively subdued. The country has a system of laws and courts to deal with people who commit crimes.
So no, a robber doesn't "deserve" to be repeatedly kicked in the head after he's been disarmed and subdued. In a civilized country, the punishments administered are supposed to be humane, and handed out by the courts rather than individual crime victims who may place very little value on human life. Or who may have grown up in countries where it's common for a village of psychopathic idiots to beat a petty thief to death with tree limbs.
All I'm saying is that human beings should be treated
at least as humanely as dogs. And since it'd be considered cruel to repeatedly kick a vicious dog in the head after it's been captured and is no longer a threat, the same thing should apply to vicious humans.
And again, the punishment for attempted robbery in Canada is not the death penalty or permanent brain damage.
Didn't you get the memo about how modern society is suppose to ignore the victims and give pity to the rapists, robbers, killers, etc.?
If I was there, I would have beaten that robber until he was unconscious. He brought a knife into my store and threaten my life, I'll make sure he is completely incapacitated so there's no chance he can hurt me or my family. If anything, that wife didn't kick hard enough.
But then of course, the bleeding heart criminal sympathizers have to tell us that we can't even defend ourselves.
I consider myself as liberal as anyone can get. But some of what mainstream liberals believe just don't make sense to me at all.
RE: "Didn't you get the memo about how modern society is suppose to ignore the victims and give pity to the rapists, robbers, killers, etc.?"
Huh? Wow, where are you getting that from?? You must have this thread confused with some other thread. Or, are you deliberately trying to misrepresent the facts in an attempt to bolster your position? If so, that almost never works, and only serves to undermine your credibility.
RE: "If I was there, I would have beaten that robber until he was unconscious."
The robber was clearly a vicious criminal, butt if you beat a physically weak wimp like him unconscious after you have him disarmed and subdued, that would make you no better than him. And you're either a moral, honorable, law abiding person or you aren't...there's no gray area just because you're the victim of a crime.
RE: "I'll make sure he is completely incapacitated so there's no chance he can hurt me or my family"
Butt who's going to protect your family while you're in prison? Because when you use excessive force to "incapacitate" a weak wimp you've already disarmed and subdued, you could easily kill him. And then you could be convicted of manslaughter and sent to a prison that's full of vicious criminals who will rob you every time you have anything of value.
RE: "If anything, that wife didn't kick hard enough."
Wow, here we go again. Did you read ANY part of this thread before posting, other than the opening post? What in the world is the point of kicking a wimpy robber in the head after he's been disarmed and subdued by a bigger, stronger man, other than to physically hurt him for revenge? And what would that guy have done if one of his wife's kicks killed the disarmed, subdued robber?
Does he have $200,000+ to retain a competent criminal defense attorney to defend her against a manslaughter charge? As well, do they have $150,000+ tucked away in a piggy bank to pay a civil attorney to defend themselves against a wrongful death lawsuit filed by the relatives of the robber? As there's any number of powerful law firms who would jump at the chance to take a case like that on a contingent fee basis, meaning that it wouldn't cost the robber's relatives a penny to fund the lawsuit. And if they lose, do they have $5 million cash laying around they can use to pay the judgment?
The point being that when people use more force than is necessary to defend themselves in this extremely litigious society, it can open a Pandora's box of "unpleasant" repercussions for them that they could have to deal with for the rest of their lives. So like mitch says, it's best to just give armed robbers the money and let the criminal justice system handle it from there.
RE: "But then of course, the bleeding heart criminal sympathizers have to tell us that we can't even defend ourselves."
If you're referring to me, did you read
any of my posts in this thread other than the opening one? My position is that lethal force would have been more than justified the second the robber jumped over the counter with the knife. So how is that being a "bleeding heart criminal sympathizer?"
Were I in the same situation, my wife with me, kids upstairs, and someone comes at me with a weapon I'm making sure he's going to be an empty seat at thanksgiving plain and simple.
Haha, and your seat would be empty as well, because civilized countries have prison beds reserved for people who murder disarmed, subdued robbers.