Vote On Swastika And Confederate Flag

[khushibagh]

The two symbols are not really equivalent - the swastika had a long and ancient history before the Nazis corrupted it, the Confederate flag came into being to represent White Southerners desire to preserve slavery. Having said that, when Germans use the swastika (as opposed to Buddhists and Hindus) or Southerners use the Stars and Bars, they are hearkening back to a very brief period in their history when those symbols were used to deny the human rights of others and for them to pretend otherwise is pure and total BS. I cringe whenever I see either symbol displayed proudly.

 

[snapcat]

Folks, the topic at hand is what it is. And it isn't about molesting one's cousin. I suggest everyone move beyond that topic.

 

[Sammie13]

How is this topic a CURRENT EVENT or POLITICS? There have been so many confederacy-related topics lately that I am beginning to wonder if the Iraq War as already faded from memory and now we're back to fighting the Civil War. 42 years of living in the South and the most discussion I've ever heard on the Civil War has been in the last month by one specific poster -- amazing! We should let that poster moderate the McCain/Obama debate....we could re-argue the 1860's (esp since nothing is ailing the country right now).

 

[Chalchalero]

I voted "no" simply because I believe that the symbolism has to be taken with the intent of both the bearer of the symbol and the person viewing it. I believe that there are honestly people who truly see the Confederate Flag as a symbol of Southern pride. I also believe that there are those who believe, as Shelby Foote would say, that the flag represents the South's resistance to Northern political and economic dominance.

It is not for me to judge or presume the intentions of those who seek to use such symbolism to define themselves or what they stand for. It is up to them to clarify it for me. I am not a mind reader.

Similarly, but not so much, the swastika has, like it or not, become a symbol for many disaffected primarily German youth of what they perceive as a period of Germany's dominance in the world. Failing perhaps in their own individual achievements, they seek glorification in their imagined connections to what they perceive to have been a history of which they can be proud.

I recently attended a symposium in Bern where this very topic was discussed in which it was posited by some German professors there that among the less advantaged (and ergo less educated) youth in Germany, particularly the East, there is a view which is growing in popularity that the holocaust was merely a small and insignificant aspect of the Nazi Party platform, and that what the Nazis really stood for was a strong and powerful Germany. They believe that there is nothing wrong with hearkening back to those days and actually see it as unpatriotic to want anything less for their country.

I believe that both symbols can be misused in various different ways, but that the fundamental premise in their present and persistent popularity lies in the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness for the future of the adherents of these symbols and in their (imagined or otherwise) belief that somewhere in another time these symbols represented a time and place where they would have been in a much better position than that in which they find themselves now.

The symbols represent for them a desire to return to their idealised vision of what they perceive their nation to be and in many cases the racial element plays either a minor rôle or none at all in the most benign cases, while playing a major rôle in the worst cases such as when a particular race or races will be blamed for their perceived displacement from the position of power to which they feel they should belong.

But I do not believe that it is safe to say that the symbols in and of themselves are evil. I believe that there are people with evil intentions who have co-opted them in order to attach an evil connotation to them. But I believe there is also a sizeable number of people for whom these symbols are merely misinterpreted or interpreted differently than the generalised perception would have it.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

its politics dear sammie BECAUSE the symbols are still used today and groups are still trying to bring others down.

 

[RandomAccess]

Folks, the topic at hand is what it is. And it isn't about molesting one's cousin. I suggest everyone move beyond that topic.

Hi SC, nice to see you again. Anyway, some of us were trying to demonstrate for the OP why the two choices offered in the attached survey were too limiting. Is that not thread related? Not a challenge, just a question.

 

[snapcat]

Hi SC, nice to see you again. Anyway, some of us were trying to demonstrate for the OP why the two choices offered in the attached survey were too limiting. Is that not thread related? Not a challenge, just a question.

First of all, this thread is ridiculous to begin with. Why everyone decided to bump this to two pages is beyond me. However, the CofC is clear on flaming and baiting other users.

Feel free to discuss the topic all you want, but refrain from discussing molesting another user's cousin.

Now that I've posted this two (2) times, the next person who disregards this will get more than a post deleted.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

That's why we have opinions.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

i totally agree with the part on straying the original topic away to another discussion is against rules. I meant how he felt about the original post. I guess i should have been more careful with how i said it.

I think i was dealing with this issue before. If someone attacks me... I just ignore it? I feel i should question what they said and at least defend myself.. but its hard to say things tactfully without it becoming an argument.

Back to the topic as if this small discussion never happened:

__________________________________________

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

Hi SC, nice to see you again. Anyway, some of us were trying to demonstrate for the OP why the two choices offered in the attached survey were too limiting. Is that not thread related? Not a challenge, just a question.

I can see why people felt that the choices were too limited. But both symbols have been used as discrimination in our history. I feel its ok for historical and educational purposes. But if one feels its a freedom of expression and no offense should be taken.. i dont know what other choices can be given.

 

[Chalchalero]

Personally I don't really see how the swastika has anything to do with expressing heritage.

In that second option, saying it's freedom of expression and saying nobody should be offended are not really the same thing. Those are two very different things that cannot be asked in the same sentence. Well, you can ask them, but people can't answer properly, as has been pointed out already.

I would say people have every right to feel offended. I'm not so sure about the freedom of expression part, as I don't believe the swastika is something that has much to do with expressing an opinion. It might have more to do with provocation. I'm very much for different forms of expression being allowed, but with the swastika people might be pushing it.

Of course as a European and grandson of survivors of nazi occupation, the swastika and the nazi's are a bit of a sensitive issue in my family.

Oh and one more thing, as I don't really know that much about the confederate flag... Isn't it a bit too far strechted to compare a symbol of the nazi's with a symbol of the confederate states of america? I mean I'm sure the confederates weren't angels, but let's face it, they can't have been even close to as bad as the nazi's?

To many African Americans, whose ancestors were subjected to the worst treatment imaginable for centuries, and for some of whom the the Confederate flag represents a sort of celebration of that period, it is more than comparable to a mere 12 years of Nazi domination endured by Europeans.

For the African Americans who themselves or are descended from others who lived through the civil rights struggle and who were forced to endure segregation and lynchings and all the rest that came with it for a century after the Civil War, but were (and in some cases still are) still confronted on a daily basis with the reminder of their second class status which, again, for them the symbol of the Confederate flag represents, I would again say that is MORE than comparable to a mere 12 years of Nazi domination in Europe.

The fact that there are no more Nazis (or few, if one counts the NDP in some German states) in power and have not been for over 60 years, but there are still Confederate flag waving racists (who would love to see the return of the "good old days) in positions of power all over the US would indicate to me taht the two symbols do have MORE than comparable status.

 

[KrisHawkXXX]

There are still Confederate flag waving racists (who would love to see the return of the "good old days) in positions of power all over the US would indicate to me taht the two symbols do have MORE than comparable status.

My point I'm trying to make

 

[SoulSearcher]

Swastika is a sacred Hindu symbol that the Devil stole and bastardised, so in that context, I don't think its a symbol of hate, but the way Nazis used it, it certainly is hateful and racist.