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Waterboarding saves lives

Waterboarding is torture.

Torture is wrong.

Republicans apparently still don't get it.
 
According to Kiriakou, Bush approved it.


BRIAN ROSS: And did you know the CIA officers feel without a doubt you had the legal right to do what you were doing?

JOHN: Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember - I remember being told when - the President signed the - the authorities that they had been approved - not just by the National Security Counsel, but by the - but by the Justice Department as well, I remember people being surprised that the authorities were granted.
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Aint it just too bad we "torture" our own troops in training. You chicks kill me.
 
You know in the navy we drown proof folks by killing their air and complicating their recovery till they suck some water....then we revive them. I had seriously thought waterboarding was a bit more serous than 35 fucking seconds.

I have taken shits that were worse.
 
This is torture! This country is supposed to be above those tactics. This is a military man saying that we got valuable information, how do we know this is true? Remember it was the military telling us that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The means do not justify the results. Ask John McCain.
 
It was not the military that was telling us about the weapons of mass destruction, it was our intelligence agencies in collaboration with the intelligence agencies of a number of our allies. Seems many were duped. As for waterboarding, I don't consider it torture. Torture to me is ripping off body pieces and parts, breaking things, beatings, depriving of food and medical care. Waterboarding give one the thought he is going to drown, it is a pretty good incentive to tell what info you have.

Mr. McCain is just being a good politician.
 
Various forms of torture were used very effectively in Salem to uncover numerous witches and others that had consorted with the devil. The Inquisition was equally effective in discovering various transgressions from the True Faith by the use of torture.

That is why we honor, revere and fondly remember those distinguished citizens today and it is why Bush will eventually find his rightful place in American history.

Whose life was saved?
 
JayHew said:
It was not the military that was telling us about the weapons of mass destruction, it was our intelligence agencies in collaboration with the intelligence agencies of a number of our allies. Seems many were duped.
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My God, you still believe the musty old Bush & Co lies?

It was revealed a long time ago that intelligence agencies indicated a lot of skepticism about WMDs by the time Bush started his Iraq war.

WE were duped by Bush & Co because they had to lie to start a war that had nothing to do with terrorists or 9/11 or legitimate threat against us. The intelligence agencies didn't dupe anybody.


As for waterboarding, I don't consider it torture. Torture to me is ripping off body pieces and parts, breaking things, beatings, depriving of food and medical care. Waterboarding give one the thought he is going to drown, it is a pretty good incentive to tell what info you have.
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You're welcome to make up your own definition of any word but whether or not the United States tortured detainees is a matter of law.

And under the law waterboarding is torture.
 
As we sink into savagery, so sinks our souls.
 
A paragraph from Al Gore's "The Assault On Reason":

In 1999, Israel's high court was asked to balance the right of individual prisoners against dire threats to the security of its people. Here is what the court declared: "This is the destiny of democracy, as not all means are acceptable to it and not all practices employed by its enemies are open before it. Although a democracy must often fight with one hand tied behind it's back, it nonetheless has the upper hand. Preserving the rule of law and recognition of an individual's liberty constitutes an important component in its understanding of security. At the end of the day they strengthen its spirit and allow it to overcome its difficulties.
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When you take the high ground, you must stand that ground. If you take a step down, you're just wallowing in the sewer with the other rats. When Bush and Cheney condoned torture, they indirectly changed the very soul of the democracy American's hold so dear. By stepping off the high ground, they inadvertently changed the entire world's respect for their nation, especially that of their enemies. And by allowing ANY form of torture, although you may deem it as insignificant, you plant a seed that trickles down the chain of command, where the inexperienced and the poor-of-judgement step beyond even those boundaries.

mazda3boi, this discussion has little to do with whether the guy was a pussy and broke so easily, or how tough the US Navy Seals are. It is about establishing a moral high ground that can never be broken, and that the rule of law, and logic, and reason, should be the true goal of a strong democracy. When you erode the basic rights of any one individual, you erode the rights of all.
 
Why would you want to support Torture? This argument was over years ago. Whether it gets truth out of prisoners doesn't matter. We signed agreements that we would not Torture... simple. Fascists made trains run on time and I am sure if an IRS agent was with everyone while they figured out their taxes, we would triple the amounts into the US Treasury, or it there was a cop outside everyone's house, there would be less crime... and if we got rid of our democracy and agreed with all these brutal ways of fascism, we would not have to worry about anyone trying to do anything awful to us. but that is the point, we don't torture, we fought a courageous battle against fascism and came up with things like stopping torture. Why would you want to go back to the Middle Ages. By the way, Cops use to love to torture gay people in the USA and they still do all over the non-western world...so this is pure hogwash fascism, which doesn't like Homosexuality very much.
 
There's no winning this argument. Those with a mindset that torture is OK are broken souls, and will never see the point that torture is immoral, and ultimately, dangerous to our soldiers. Because it is understood, that we torture our enemies, then it will make it easier for our enemies to torture us.

Giving into this sort of sick reasoning, that torture is OK, will only lead to more and more horrendous cases of torture. We ought to pass laws that anyone caught torturing should undergo the same torture to see what it is like. I get how absurd this proposal is, but to practice torture without understanding the consequences is why torturers think the practice is OK.

And Mazdaboi, I'm sorry that you were tortured by our own military during your training, because that shouldn't be happening either. Do you think it made you tougher? Like as not, it made you more resistant to the practice, so if you are ever captured by the enemy, they will have to increase their effort to get you to disclose what they seek. The Las Vegas effect applied to intelligence gathering.
 
LaloGS said:
There's no winning this argument. Those with a mindset that torture is OK are broken souls, and will never see the point that torture is immoral, and ultimately, dangerous to our soldiers. Because it is understood, that we torture our enemies, then it will make it easier for our enemies to torture us.

Giving into this sort of sick reasoning, that torture is OK, will only lead to more and more horrendous cases of torture. We ought to pass laws that anyone caught torturing should undergo the same torture to see what it is like. I get how absurd this proposal is, but to practice torture without understanding the consequences is why torturers think the practice is OK.

And Mazdaboi, I'm sorry that you were tortured by our own military during your training, because that shouldn't be happening either. Do you think it made you tougher? Like as not, it made you more resistant to the practice, so if you are ever captured by the enemy, they will have to increase their effort to get you to disclose what they seek. The Las Vegas effect applied to intelligence gathering.
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Well put LaloGS. It's sad that a country that was once a strong supporter of the Geneva Conventions is now looking for legal loopholes and ways to stretch the truth so that it can torture people with the same methods we tried Japanese torturers for in WWII. Sad.
 
I can't imagine what torture mazda3boi had to go thru. I remember the worse I had in '61 was being in a room full of tear gas and had to remove the gas mask just before leaving.
 
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